boycott systemd
mavrothal wrote:...DebianDog spins are based on the DebianLive > SageDebianLive > Debian-Light-builder by emil, chain.
Systemd is in Debian since the beginning.
Several months now is decided that systemd will be the default init in Debian.
DebianLive uses systemd-config package which is in the repos sometime now.
So it would appear that there is no apparent problem in deploying a systemd-based DebianDog spin.
So it is clear that you choose to avoid systemd in your spins and to not offer it even as an option
Could you tell us why?
read more at: https://wiki.debian.org/systemd...systemd was included in Debian wheezy as a technology preview. Please make sure that you are using Debian testing or newer to get a recent version of systemd
Untill very recently, Debian Dog, as well as Debian stable was based on Wheezy. If you follow the DD thread, Toni (aka saintless) has mentioned in one of his recent posts, that probably it would take a couple (or so) months before DD Jessie would be released. In other words, formally DD is still DD Wheezy. Even though systemd is a preview in DD Wheezy it was offered for testing. And we did test it a long time ago. Apparently you didn't follow the thread and missed the opportunity.
@ starhawk & bbb,
You guys, crack me up.
Reading your comments, I see, you have already tied Toni to the stake, poured gasoiline on the wood and are ready to set it on fire.
Let me ask you a question, are you qualified enough to pass judgement on init systems?
Keep in mind, Toni speaks from his personal experience - and you?
OK, thanks.anikin wrote:I can't find the link, sorry. Maybe, Toni has it, I can only say, that it was a long time ago. I still have leftover systemd files in my DD Wheezy from that testing.
Was it dropped for some reason?
== [url=http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html]Here is how to solve your[/url] [url=https://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/bugs.html]Linux problems fast[/url] ==
WE, the contributers here, are waging a war which is needless, and does NOT bring light to what exist and how best to use any of the 3 strategies here.
Further, since PC industry manufacturers have adopted their approach, YOU nor I have any means of changing that as it is our present and probably for our future over the next decade.
So which (I ask differently) ... is the most practical thing that PUPPY can do?
It doesn't matter if you have PC building experience or NOT. The manufacturers have spoken and educational institutions are running with the new replacement to old BIOS thinking. Old BIOS is out and will never return as businesses have moved to new methods in manufacturing.
YOU and I cannot stop it. But, WE can manage it, all of it, to our benefit!
Step back and look. THINK!
Further, since PC industry manufacturers have adopted their approach, YOU nor I have any means of changing that as it is our present and probably for our future over the next decade.
So which (I ask differently) ... is the most practical thing that PUPPY can do?
- Embrace them all?
- Demonize them all?
- Create "camp" of tribes following a particular religion?
- Take a practical view and approach which is consistent with PC manufacturers so that PUPs will run no matter what and with as little retooling to match future needs?
It doesn't matter if you have PC building experience or NOT. The manufacturers have spoken and educational institutions are running with the new replacement to old BIOS thinking. Old BIOS is out and will never return as businesses have moved to new methods in manufacturing.
YOU and I cannot stop it. But, WE can manage it, all of it, to our benefit!
Step back and look. THINK!
Last edited by gcmartin on Mon 27 Apr 2015, 19:50, edited 2 times in total.
I should clarify that we did test systemd on DD Wheezy based on the instructions in the wiki, see here: https://wiki.debian.org/systemd. It definitely wasn't a special, systemd ISO release at the time, just the instructions provided by Toni. I believe, he took them from the wiki. That's why I have leftover systemd files in my DD - removed systemd but didn't purge.
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I speak from personal experience.anikin wrote:Let me ask you a question, are you qualified enough to pass judgement on init systems?
Keep in mind, Toni speaks from his personal experience - and you?
Dear (blind) systemd fanboy, Are YOU qualified enough to pass judgement on init systems? And are YOU, speaking from personal experience or are you just following the popular crowd blindly like a sheep?
....
I really like to avoid answering your questions. I hope you remember you are the one who wrote we do not speak the same language and I agree. Chating with you makes me feel bad because you are not telling the truth.mavrothal wrote:So it would appear that there is no apparent problem in deploying a systemd-based DebianDog spin.
So it is clear that you choose to avoid systemd in your spins and to not offer it even as an option
Could you tell us why?
How to install Systemd in Debian and DebianDog Wheezy with support to use systemd with live-boot2,3 and porteus-boot
New version Porteus-Wheezy-3.13.6-openbox.iso. Added same improvements like in DebianDog latest version but the kernel is 3.13.6 from Porteus and the modules extension is .xzm (like in Porteus). This version runs with systemd boot enabled.
DebianDog-Jessie-OpenBox.iso with default systemd boot (sysvinit is not installed) - Direct download link to the iso
Working on DebianDog-SID-Jwm-Icewm.iso with both systemd and sysvinit included with menu entry to boot systemd or sysvinit
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First off, I highly doubt he was lying.saintless wrote:I really like to avoid answering your questions. I hope you remember you are the one who wrote we do not speak the same language and I agree. Chating with you makes me feel bad because you are not telling the truth.mavrothal wrote:So it would appear that there is no apparent problem in deploying a systemd-based DebianDog spin.
So it is clear that you choose to avoid systemd in your spins and to not offer it even as an option
Could you tell us why?
How to install Systemd in Debian and DebianDog Wheezy with support to use systemd with live-boot2,3 and porteus-boot
New version Porteus-Wheezy-3.13.6-openbox.iso. Added same improvements like in DebianDog latest version but the kernel is 3.13.6 from Porteus and the modules extension is .xzm (like in Porteus). This version runs with systemd boot enabled.
DebianDog-Jessie-OpenBox.iso with default systemd boot (sysvinit is not installed) - Direct download link to the iso
Working on DebianDog-SID-Jwm-Icewm.iso with both systemd and sysvinit included with menu entry to boot systemd or sysvinit
Second, I applaud your decision to give users choice.
....
I do. I understand they are trying to get more followers but doing this by lying about official Debian is something I do not like and do not respect.Scooby wrote:If your position is that it is the developers choice what to be the default init
then maybe you should extend that courtesy towards Devuan developers as well.
DebianDog indeed allows user choice to use either systemd or sysvinit and has done for a long time. No particular bias about it really - up to the users' wishes. And yes, Fred's DD openbox version of 11.082014 has systemd boot enabled by default:
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 990#777990
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 071#839071
Since there seems to be some misunderstanding of what DebianDog is, by some Puppy users it seems:
DebianDog is based on Debian Live, heavily pruned to make it Puppy-sized whilst keeping full Debian compatibility, so completely extendible via Synaptics GUI and/or apt-get package management.
DebianDog however has many useful facilities added including quick load support for sfs files (including those created for Puppy), can automatically create sfs files from packages downloaded directly from Debian repositories (using Fred's apt2sfs utility) and has incorporated many Puppy utilities and many many more of its own. It has also been given Puppy look and feel (root user by default though full multiuser), including JWM (or icewm or openbox) which makes it familiar to longtime Puppy users such as myself.
I don't myself see DebianDog as being in any way in competition with Puppy though. Rather I think Puppy and DD benefit each other since utilities developed for one can be so easily ported to the other (e.g. DD also comes with gtkdialog by default). However, if a user wants to experiment/compare the likes of systemd versus sysvinit, DebianDog provides a good platform for that since its underlying core is pure Debian compatible so package management is a breeze and it has terrific remastering tools too.
So I feel that it's good to use and play with both Puppy and DD since much to learn from both and DD is a nice step to also learning Debian (or Debian-based systems such as Linux Mint and Ubuntu) since DD is so small to download (and maintain) and so Puppy like in environment. Fatdog64 and Quirky are equally interesting in their own right for the alternative perspectives they provide.
William
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 990#777990
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 071#839071
Since there seems to be some misunderstanding of what DebianDog is, by some Puppy users it seems:
DebianDog is based on Debian Live, heavily pruned to make it Puppy-sized whilst keeping full Debian compatibility, so completely extendible via Synaptics GUI and/or apt-get package management.
DebianDog however has many useful facilities added including quick load support for sfs files (including those created for Puppy), can automatically create sfs files from packages downloaded directly from Debian repositories (using Fred's apt2sfs utility) and has incorporated many Puppy utilities and many many more of its own. It has also been given Puppy look and feel (root user by default though full multiuser), including JWM (or icewm or openbox) which makes it familiar to longtime Puppy users such as myself.
I don't myself see DebianDog as being in any way in competition with Puppy though. Rather I think Puppy and DD benefit each other since utilities developed for one can be so easily ported to the other (e.g. DD also comes with gtkdialog by default). However, if a user wants to experiment/compare the likes of systemd versus sysvinit, DebianDog provides a good platform for that since its underlying core is pure Debian compatible so package management is a breeze and it has terrific remastering tools too.
So I feel that it's good to use and play with both Puppy and DD since much to learn from both and DD is a nice step to also learning Debian (or Debian-based systems such as Linux Mint and Ubuntu) since DD is so small to download (and maintain) and so Puppy like in environment. Fatdog64 and Quirky are equally interesting in their own right for the alternative perspectives they provide.
William
github mcewanw
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The devuan developers were not lying.saintless wrote:I do. I understand they are trying to get more followers but doing this by lying about official Debian is something I do not like and do not respect.Scooby wrote:If your position is that it is the developers choice what to be the default init
then maybe you should extend that courtesy towards Devuan developers as well.
....
Debian Long Term Support
Debian Long Term Support
https://wiki.debian.org/LTS/
[quote]Thus the Debian LTS team takes over security maintenance of the various releases once the Debian Security team stops its work. The team will thus handle:
Debian 6 “Squeeze
https://wiki.debian.org/LTS/
[quote]Thus the Debian LTS team takes over security maintenance of the various releases once the Debian Security team stops its work. The team will thus handle:
Debian 6 “Squeeze
Re: systemd revolutionizes hacking your PC!
That's a good one
Fatdog64 forum links: [url=http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=117546]Latest version[/url] | [url=https://cutt.ly/ke8sn5H]Contributed packages[/url] | [url=https://cutt.ly/se8scrb]ISO builder[/url]
- technosaurus
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a complete statically compiled busybox system rings in at ~1mb.
OTOH systemd provides at least an additional 1% functionality for only ... lets do the math:
nevermind, that's too much math
... but definitely not something you would want in an initramfs
OTOH systemd provides at least an additional 1% functionality for only ... lets do the math:
Code: Select all
(Debian example: duplicate dependencies removed for brevity
... note the lack of a shell, and many other tools provided by busybox
... but that's OK, you can just roll your own in perl or slang)
systemd : 13,458.0 kB
|- libc6 : 10,291.0 kB
| |- libgcc1 : 129.0 kB
| | |- multiarch-support : 216.0 kB
| | |- gcc-4.9-base : 218.0 kB
|- libgcrypt20 : 1,033.0 kB
| |- libgpg-error0 : 444.0 kB
|- liblzma5 : 309.0 kB
|- acl : 258.0 kB
| |- libattr1 : 30.0 kB
|- adduser : 1,066.0 kB
| |- debconf : 614.0 kB
| |- passwd : 2,132.0 kB
| | |- debianutils : 147.0 kB
| | | |- sensible-utils : 110.0 kB
| | |- libpam-modules : 852.0 kB
| | | |- libdb5.3 : 1,812.0 kB
| | | |- libpam-modules-bin : 248.0 kB
| | |- libsemanage1 : 245.0 kB
| | |- libsemanage-common : 65.0 kB
| | |- libsepol1 : 339.0 kB
| | |- libustr-1.0-1 : 287.0 kB
| |- perl-base : 4,643.0 kB
| |- dpkg : 7,195.0 kB
| |- libbz2-1.0 : 114.0 kB
| |- tar : 2,619.0 kB
| |- zlib1g : 179.0 kB
|- initscripts : 165.0 kB
| |- coreutils : 14,249.0 kB
| |- lsb-base : 72.0 kB
| |- sysvinit-utils : 147.0 kB
| |- startpar : 95.0 kB
|- libacl1 : 80.0 kB
|- libaudit1 : 157.0 kB
| |- libaudit-common : 49.0 kB
|- libblkid1 : 326.0 kB
| |- libuuid1 : 89.0 kB
|- libcap2 : 61.0 kB
|- libcap2-bin : 110.0 kB
|- libcryptsetup4 : 252.0 kB
| |- libdevmapper1.02.1 : 330.0 kB
| | |- dmsetup : 123.0 kB
|- libkmod2 : 134.0 kB
|- libpam0g : 248.0 kB
| |- libselinux1 : 213.0 kB
| |- libpcre3 : 672.0 kB
|- libsystemd0 : 181.0 kB
|- mount : 357.0 kB
| |- libmount1 : 357.0 kB
| |- libsmartcols1 : 209.0 kB
|- sysv-rc OR file-rc : 141.0 kB
| ******* |- insserv : 183.0 kB
|- udev : 5,924.0 kB
| |- libudev1 : 98.0 kB
| |- procps : 670.0 kB
| | |- libncursesw5 : 388.0 kB
| | |- libprocps3 : 132.0 kB
|- util-linux : 2,733.0 kB
|- libncurses5 : 306.0 kB
|- libslang2 : 1,543.0 kB
|- libtinfo5 : 480.0 kB
|- tzdata : 1,546.0 kB
... but definitely not something you would want in an initramfs
Last edited by technosaurus on Tue 19 May 2015, 19:52, edited 1 time in total.
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