(old)Puppy Linux Discussion Forum

https://techcrunch.com/2016/09/14/edwar ... or-pardon/

For some time now, Snowden was forgotten, but his legacy lives on with advancements in encryption and, generally speaking, thanks to Snowden, people are more aware that their privacy is at stake in this digital age, and that the Surveillance State is keeping a close tabs on people, thanks to the billions-of-dollars surveillance industry.

So there is a campaign for Obama to pardon Snowden.

Some US citizens would like to have him back home, as a hero, defending democracy, and as such he should be celebrated instead of being punished.

Some US citizens would gladly open their arms to a prisoner of conscience from China, emprisoned for criticizing the communist leaders, but refuse the same opening of arms to their very own citizen fighting for US democracy to prevail against the Surveillance State and the billions-of-dollars surveillance industry.

One day he will be pardoned. It's next to impossible that he is forgotten and dies of old age far away from home, not pardoned. After all, US brags itself to be the epitome of democracy.

I have no problem with Snowden getting a pardon eventually. He isn't the kind of criminal that needs to be locked up for 20 plus years.

But pardons aren't for fugitives.

If he turns himself in, pleads guilty or stands trial, then he can ask for a pardon and maybe he should get one (although I'd be more for commuting his sentence from the 20 or so years he'd likely get to something like 6 months).

I don't think Snowden should return to the United States - even if he would get any pardon that would make him not going to jail.

I can imagine a true/real American patriot who will shoot Snowden to death, if he returns to the United States and will get a pardon.

A pardon? Snowden is a traitor to his own country and people.
He went to work at a "spy" agency, what did he expect?
Surely he knew that he would find one or two skeletons in the closet.

I am no fan of the CIA and all those other "agencies" but two wrongs don't make a right and what he did was a very big wrong, committing treason.

Did people really need to be "told" by Snowden that "hey your government spies on you" ?
All governments spy on their population and those of other countries.

..and no, I'm not American.

What did everyone think the NSA was doing with all the money they got? They might like to track everything going on in Pakistan, Afghanistan. Still they were going to look for individuals and groups in the US, western countries who might do unpleasant things.

I am not saying I agree with the government has been doing, but why do we say it was a surprise as to what Snowden told us they were doing.

Didn't everyone who was knowledgeable with computer security, and the certainty that the NSA (and friends) were, at best bending the law, and were spying on a lot of folks who had no relationship with Terrorism.

I am saying, I don't get the shock everyone seems to have that as to what the NSA (five eyes) and so on were doing.

Another question. How many of us feel harmed? Who is closer to mental illness because of what the government is doing? How many of the US citizens are acting in a more suspicious way? Then again, how might someone who had access to whatever is being harvested by the NSA have harmed us, or just me, by knowing more about me than they should?

and if people think that it's bad now (government spying on them), just wait until
Trump gets into the White House, then there really will be "hell toupee".

Pardons are a scam to make money out of people. I agree with LazY Puppy, Edward Snowden is too good for the US and a hero in the eyes of countries that are not part of the "5 eyes". Just because he was born in the US doesn't mean he has to go back.

Pete wrote:A pardon? Snowden is a traitor to his own country and people.

He's a fucking hero to the people, not a traitor. He deserves a pardon, but I don't think he'll get one though. Like it or not, he did the right thing; If you consider that treason, then I guess your views are warped.

Sailor Enceladus wrote:I agree with LazY Puppy, Edward Snowden is too good for the US and a hero in the eyes of countries that are not part of the "5 eyes". Just because he was born in the US doesn't mean he has to go back.

Agreed.

Some may consider him a "hero" but I doubt it's the majority of the population.
He still broke the law, no matter if we like it or not.

One can't pick and choose laws as we see fit otherwise it all lands up in chaos.
When he joined the NSA, he must have signed a document stating that he is not to release, publish, discuss anything.
(Actually just common sense should have kept his mouth shut).
He did the exact opposite whilst running off to the Russians.

Not only did he break a contract, he divulged some of his countries secrets to a foreign power.

Unacceptable, no matter the reason why he did it.

No president in their right mind would/should pardon him as it will set a very bad precedence that it's ok to give away American state secrets to others.

Pete wrote:Some may consider him a "hero" but I doubt it's the majority of the population.
He still broke the law, no matter if we like it or not.

One can't pick and choose laws as we see fit otherwise it all lands up in chaos.
When he joined the NSA, he must have signed a document stating that he is not to release, publish, discuss anything.
(Actually just common sense should have kept his mouth shut).
He did the exact opposite whilst running off to the Russians.

Not only did he break a contract, he divulged some of his countries secrets to a foreign power.

Unacceptable, no matter the reason why he did it.

No president in their right mind would/should pardon him as it will set a very bad precedence that it's ok to give away American state secrets to others.

So what your saying is that a person shouldn't do the right thing and call out the government for committing crimes their people and people of other nations.

That is not what I am saying.

First off, are people that naive to think that any government does not spy on it's population and they need him to tell them?

Secondly, we are not talking genocide here or other heinous crimes being committed by the government.
I think there is a very big difference between those and invasion of privacy.

As technology progresses, privacy will also diminish.
People had better get used to it, anonymous is about to become extinct.

At the end of the day, what did Snowden actually achieve? Nothing.
Governments will continue to spy on people and he has ruined his life and made things quite difficult for his family.

What a hero.

Pete wrote:Snowden is a traitor to his own country and people.

How is he a traitor to his people? That makes no sense. He did it to raise awareness and transparency FOR the people. As bark_bark_bark said, your views are warped. Just watch the video in the link, he explains the problem with "abuse of power".

Of course he's a traitor.
Last time I checked, doing what he did (for whatever reason) makes him
guilty of treason in most (if not all) civilized countries.

The law defines him as a traitor, or is the law also flawed and warped now?

Let's get real here (personal feelings and beliefs aside), if we don't like a certain law, we can't just decide to ignore it or break it.
There are ways to lobby to try and get it changed.
He went about it in the completely wrong way and by definition of the law, it makes him a traitor for what he did.

I asked how he is a traitor to his people, so your comment above isn't really replying to mine or your own.

I thought my reply answered that.

His country's law brands him a traitor, therefore by default he is a traitor to all citizens of that country.

Ah ok. I guess I just don't see such a strong link between country laws and the people. People are just born into a country, many laws that people are born into weren't even decided when they existed, and should probably get the chop. I surely don't agree with every legal decision, I guess almost every person is a "traitor to the law" in some way. Not a very important or useful measurement I think, except if your occupation is a lawyer and you enjoy sucking as much money as possible off the people.

Indeed, most people were not even born when many laws were promulgated but they still have to adhere to them.
If they don't like it and there is enough of them, they can try and get it changed via the right channels and methods, it's called democracy.
However breaking laws because you don't happen to like them, is called anarchy.

Well at least we agree on one thing, our dislike of lawyers.

If you have gained an awareness that a government body you work for is comitting crimes against its own people, then it is in fact your moral obligation to expose this knowledge.
Snowden is not guilty of treason, the NSA is guilty of treason. The NSA broke the rules. The NSA stepped out of line. The NSA was doing things that were wrong, unconstitutional, and morally objectionable.

What Snowden did, was an attempt to protect the people of his country, and indeed the whole world, from an agency acting in secrecy, without any oversight what-so-ever, implementing a type of dragnet surveiillance that would make the DDR Stasi look like a bunch of funloving hippies.

Pardon my expression, but it takes balls of steel to expose the most powerful government agency in the world, knowing full well they'll come after you with all they've got, knowing you will never be able to have a normal life after that, or any life at all if they can help it.

That is true sacrifice. That is true love for your country.

But hey, that's just, like, my opinion man.

I'm not defending the NSA, they did break the law, but technically so did he.
It was his methods that were wrong.
He could have easily gone public but not supplied any proof.
People would (quite rightly) have asked for the proof which he could have supplied in private to Congress.
(Supplying classified documents to Congress is not an act of treason, especially if they subpoena you).

By this time the story would have been all over the media and Congress would be pressured into releasing at least some documents.

That way he would have exposed the wrong doings of the NSA, not have been accused of treason and been able to still enjoy living in his own country as a true hero.