Running modern Puppy in Low RAM systems

[nic007]

Can you post a direct link to download the ISO? I'm not quite sure which one you mean: some say Racy is not for old computers.

And can GLIBC 2.27 be installed on it? If it causes problems I can just reinstall the works easily enough.

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 55#1041555
I don't recommend any glibc upgrades as it will place an even heavier load on your already stressed out old machine. It's unnecessary.

[mikeslr]

I don't recommend any glibc upgrades as it will place an even heavier load on your already stressed out old machine. It's unnecessary.

Ditto. Unless you need the newest applications with the latest "Bells and Whistles" --and the newest applications will almost always demand the same RAM and computer power that newer computers provide -- the old applications will accomplish the same tasks as the new. The only exceptions to this rule are Web-browsers and those applications, such as openssl, required to access some/many modern websites. Fortunately watchdog has created special builds of palemoon which both can be used even with old Puppies and most Websites find acceptable.

Even the version of openssl built into Xenialpup four years ago is considered 'old'. It will reach End of Life next year. The resulting lack of security is not a problem for Puppies. You can run them as Frugal and not Save anything which you unknowingly pick up while surfing. But at some point in the future Websites may deny access if you do not have a reasonably current version of openssl or its alternatives. Not yet. I still have almost no problem running a modified Slacko 5.7. But sometime.

Updating openssl will be a problem. I don't think --but I'm no expert-- that like those dependencies which watchdog and others have built into web-browsers themselves openssl can be updated to current versions without first updating glibc. That means a system wide update. And the end result would be that your 'old puppy' will place almost or exactly the same demands on RAM and CPU which newer Puppies place.

[Mike Walsh]

@ GusCE6:-

I tend to agree with t'other Mike on this one. In my case, despite running what many would term 'vintage' hardware, it's sufficiently powerful enough to cope with all Pups, old and new. Many Puppians don't have that luxury, and have to work within the constraints of their existing hardware. In other words, that means running an age-related OS, that's 'sympathetic' to the age (and capabilities) of your computer.

Yes, older systems, running an older OS will, according to popular wisdom, be more vulnerable to outside influence than a newer setup. A lot can be done to mitigate such outside influences, though, without making your system 'heavy' & 'sluggish'.....and Puppy, by its nature (though I think rufwoof will probably beg to differ on this one), tends to be more secure than mainstream Linux, without necessarily being fully-patched & 'up-to-date'.

You have to ultimately decide on an acceptable level of risk, then work within that envelope. It can be done, with a bit of work.


Mike.

[rufwoof]

....and Puppy, by its nature (though I think rufwoof will probably beg to differ on this one), tends to be more secure than mainstream Linux, without necessarily being fully-patched & 'up-to-date'

Default Puppy, yes (beg to differ). Correctly installed/run Puppy, no. Correctly run IMO is to boot using usb (or dvd) that is physically detached after bootup and only save when absolutely necessary (and after a clean boot/make changes/save). The general stance with Puppy however is to use hdd for booting, storing sfs's and save's, which leaves them as exposed as a full hdd install to any in-session cracks. The saviour however is that Puppy is a low value/low volume target (unattractive), but as crackers expand their penetration databases/targets ??? Mainstream *nix utilise jails/non-root, which makes them more secure than if running as root. Not all hacks are identified/obvious, for instance we've a election campaign going on at present here in the UK and just the other day a DDOS (distributed denial of service) attack was launched against one of the parties, where thousands of cracked systems are 'activated' to overload a target, which in most cases is the first time that those systems might even become aware that their system had been cracked (in a large majority of cases they may still remain unaware their system played a part in that attack). As stingers say, the best con is the con where the mark doesn't even know they've been conned (or not at least until the stinger has long been gone).

Much of later Puppy's has gone the way of Windows IMO - a gui window for even trivial cli commands/actions (avoid cli at all cost type practice). Bloated, more vulnerable, and in striving to avoid cli misses out on 'Unix' type culture. I have a refined Bulldog (Fatdog) for instance that is less than a 12MB vmlinuz, that's with all firmware/modules/initrd/etc. all built into that. When booted, 21MB ram used. Heavy usage it might hit 50MB - and that's fully loaded into ram. I can do quite a bit with that, but I didn't build sound support into it. Native Bulldog (boot Fatdog with pfix=nox) has full sound/framebuffer support and the framebuffer can be used for playing videos (nvlc/vlc ncurses) etc. Along with 'screen' (terminal multiplexor) I can load up alsamixer, alsa equaliser, mc (file manager and text editor) in different windows and switch between those as desired. I also tend to sshfs mount hashhang (ssh server) and my android phone at /hashband and /android mount points ... so I can easily access/move files around between ssh server/phone/laptop. On hashbang I leave multiple tmux windows running for email. irc ...etc. which is handy in the case of irc as I can connect, and then scroll back to see historic postings that were posted since my last visit.

Android phone is great for the wide range of things/apps that offers in a small/portable device. Sometimes if watching/listening to a video I'll have that playing on the phone so the laptop is free for doing irc/whatever. Other times whilst playing with the phone I'll have the video running on the laptop (nvlc). A phone cradle that clips to the side of the laptop screen is something I'm expecting from Santa this year

That can all be run on a low spec laptop/system. Taken to a further extreme you could buy one of those $99 'laptops' that are basically just a battery, screen, keyboard, usb ports ...etc. that you attach your android to and the 'laptop' uses the phones processor/applications. No need for a new 'laptop' just update the phone for extra processing power/functionality. And where the laptop battery recharges the phone whilst its connected (minimum of 8 hours battery life/non-mains power usage is towards the low side). Not on my Christmas list as I prefer a proper laptop/phone combination.

Under standard Bulldog, you also have the option to run 'startx' to start up Fatdog to then have access to the full Fatdog gui desktop. But that is where higher spec devices are required in order to support the processing/system that gui desktop browsers etc. require.

Each of cli/gui/laptop/phone have their good and bad elements. When you combine all of those however you have the best of both/all worlds. For instance I store all of my bookmarks in a text file and when in X I have F1 show a terminal (tilda) with that file being displayed, scroll up/down and click whichever link I want to run. Whilst editing/adding/removing from that file is a breeze, and its portable (same no matter what browser I might be running - just have to make a single change in tilda to identify which browser to launch when a link is clicked.

Unix is great for networking/interconnecting, sometimes for instance I'll have all net traffic route via the ssh tunnel to hashbang as that obscures my actual IP from sites, obscures which sites I'm visiting from my ISP/state and from Google. Mostly I don't bother with that and just surf as-is, but in some cases I might not want sensitive searches being recorded by Google about us ("I've got some peculiar rash" or whatever type searches (not that I have)).

[rufwoof]

Updating openssl will be a problem. I don't think --but I'm no expert-- that like those dependencies which watchdog and others have built into web-browsers themselves openssl can be updated to current versions without first updating glibc. That means a system wide update. And the end result would be that your 'old puppy' will place almost or exactly the same demands on RAM and CPU which newer Puppies place.

Just updated my <12MB Bulldog system this morning to 4.14.154 ... that is running the latest stable version of busybox, has wifi net connected on bootup (that takes just a few seconds), has OpenSSH, OpenSSL etc. and boots fully loaded/running in ram with just 21MB initially being used. Much of the 'bloat' is due to browser demands. Cutting that out (using your android phone/whatever instead and just having it mounted) is the way to go in low spec/old systems IMO.

[greengeek]

I use Opera Mini with microemulator everyday for general browsing. Newer glibc will put more strain on your old system. I wouldn't recommend that avenue. Racy would be my recommendation for your use. It's one of the first puppys to use series 3 kernels.

Hi nic, what are the chances of you releasing a generic lightweight puppy iso with a working Opera mini? I'm not sure what a microemulator is or does but I would love to try some of your potential offerings.

I am stuck with Slacko 5.6 and Palemoon as my most lightweight system but always keen to trial anything that is more efficient.

cheers!

[nic007]

I use Opera Mini with microemulator everyday for general browsing. Newer glibc will put more strain on your old system. I wouldn't recommend that avenue. Racy would be my recommendation for your use. It's one of the first puppys to use series 3 kernels.

Hi nic, what are the chances of you releasing a generic lightweight puppy iso with a working Opera mini? I'm not sure what a microemulator is or does but I would love to try some of your potential offerings.

I am stuck with Slacko 5.6 and Palemoon as my most lightweight system but always keen to trial anything that is more efficient.

cheers!

Hi, greengeek. I made an sfs package for Opera Mini. Note that you need Java installed to run it (Java not included in the package). I've tried to make things easy so it's ready to run. Run from menu (there should be an Opera Mini entry in the "Internet" section or run the OperaMini script in /usr/local/bin. The application will open microemulator with Opera Mini ready to launch, just click Start. This should run on any Puppy, I've been using it for years since Puppy 412. It will also run with old versions of Java (JRE). First thing you may want to do is to change the screen size for your screen if necessary. Easiest way is to right-click on microemulator in the taskbar and maximize, then close the application and restart. Best to run and play with it to get used to the way it works, some things are a bit different.

Download link:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1zrDXy ... DhUi3sphfl

I've uploaded a Racy variant the other day, see here:
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 55#1041555

This is the oldest puppy I'm still using.

[Atle]

Great thread.

As I see it, a OS consists of basically 3 parts and that is:

1) The software that enables the two following parts:

2) Software to maintain and operate the OPERATING SYSTEM

3) Software to DO THINGS, or "third part" software, such as Gparted, Gimp, Firefox etc

If we can agree that most people turn on their computer in order to DO THINGS such as read mail, waste time on Facebook, write stuff and what not, then the part number two is their "enemy", and why most people are struggling with PC as at least for Windows, the virus, updates and such, gives the user a chunk of challenges in order to operate the third part PRODUCTION software that is the main reason people turn on their PC.

Only a little percentage is "nerding" around like me, that likes to tweak and "optimize" the OS so that the resources can be utilized by the production tools.

So if one assumes such OS as Lucid or the notorious "Turbo Puppy" are just the CARRIER of PRODUCTION TOOLS, could it be possible to strip it down to the core, or remove all software that is outdated and keep the neat tools that does not go out of date and replace the outdated software with apps that are made for Android and run them in Anbox or in the same manner that Opera Mini has been made in to a SFS(Microemulater)?

Lets say offering 3 browsers such as Chrome for Android, Firefox for Android and Opera Mini as most owners of old computers can not use the modern browsers made for PC as they are resource hogs.

For Facebook on uses Facebook Lite App and so forth?

I do not even know if this is possible, but it seems to me like the only way to provide a complete and up to date internet and user experience.

Today even PC with 2 gig of ram can struggle with resource hungry pages such as Facebook, Gmail and other "bad ass" websites and services.

I got one with 2 gig of ram and it was only AFTER I installed Bluemessenger in Chrome and then using FB trough Facebook Lite, that I was capable of browsing normal with several tabs at the same time.

I assume that if one made such a puppy, a stripped down version that separates the PRODUCTION TOOLS by using Android versions, one might be able to run a modern Puppy on a Low RAM system?

Now as for real life testing without "running a OS within a OS, but real tests, I suggest the group in Facebook that is called "Linux for Old Computers", whereas BigPup is "suspected" to be the leader or at least someone that uses the same avatar as him, to TEST what is the limits as there is people there that got PCs with 128, 256, 512mb RAM computers AND the interest of such.

So the lack of REAL testing might just be resolved by simply asking in that group if they can test "whatever new" on true hardware and not inside a OS.

Actually Barry him selfs last project, that I never go running properly, but have done some research on(containers), might even be the most interesting candidate for such a project as I read that containers is sort of another approach towards using less resources in order to use applications.

I am a happy amateur and can not say anything for sure, but it seems like using smaller and less resource hungry modern Apps in order to obtain a modern and up to date user experience on an old PC.

My five cents...

[nic007]

Puppy's builtin applications are small and not resource hungry (except for newer browsers). It's also more or less the same for every version of puppy and gets upgraded as we go on. Most of these applications have in my view already reached a stage of maturity at least 5 years ago and don't really need upgrades but they are upgraded because newer puppys have newer libraries so some software needs to be ugraded to run on those newer puppys (but they are not necessary better than the older versions). Believe me, it's not worthwhile to strip the builtin applications, it's SMALL. The new browsers are resource hungry but even a puppy as old as Racy can easily run the newest Palemoon browser. Opera Mini is of course very nice and light for general browsing but you can't stream media with it.

[Atle]

No doubt that Puppy as the "mother of all Old Computer Friendly OS's", got the most extreme collection of lightweight and small footprint (CPU/ RAM) apps builtin. These apps does not need to go, but its more about those limiting the experience and then I guess web browser is the main challenge.

Yes its the resource hogs like Chrome and Firefox that needs to be replaced with Android apps that are up to date and gives a complete web experience and not a "nearly one". When I say "nearly one", I mean that MOST users are likely to want to be able to use Youtube, Gmail, FB or webskype, and this is where the show stops as you get a message saying that "your browser is out of date/wrong or similar".

Opera is one choice and used by few and not by the masses. They use Chrome or Firefox.

Chrome is used by more than 60% of mobile users and Opera less than 3%, so why not deliver what the masses has chosen? The numbers for desktops is like 68,5% vs 1.4% for Opera.

Note that when I say "stripped down", I mean to remove those apps that uses lots of Ram and CPU and replace them with Android apps equivalents.

If you start to remove what made Puppy popular(the large number of small and neat apps builtin among other things), one might as well start of with Tiny Core to make a "modern OS run in Low RAM" and go from near scratch.

I am assuming that most people that uses old computers either got a "nerdy" idea about its usage such as "home server" or something that does not fit with the main stream wish and that would mostly be to browse the web without meeting browser limits for the most popular services such as Youtube.

I do not favor neither Opera nor Chrome, but i favor to release software that is meeting the needs of the users and me guessing and hence the numbers, most people would prefer, understand and want a browser they have heard of and likely used rather than the more obscure Opera built on the chrome engine anyway.

So by the end of the day my question is if using the Android version of Chrome is possible in a modern puppy so that old computers can be revitalized and get a new life?

And as said before, I am a happy amateur and optimist

[jamesbond]

Updated my first post with test runs on actual 14-year old machine (Dell laptop, Pentium M, 512MB RAM) from 2005, using Dpup, with very satisfying result.

[belham2]

I use Opera Mini with microemulator everyday for general browsing. Newer glibc will put more strain on your old system. I wouldn't recommend that avenue. Racy would be my recommendation for your use. It's one of the first puppys to use series 3 kernels.

Hi nic, what are the chances of you releasing a generic lightweight puppy iso with a working Opera mini? I'm not sure what a microemulator is or does but I would love to try some of your potential offerings.

I am stuck with Slacko 5.6 and Palemoon as my most lightweight system but always keen to trial anything that is more efficient.

cheers!

Hi, greengeek. I made an sfs package for Opera Mini. Note that you need Java installed to run it (Java not included in the package). I've tried to make things easy so it's ready to run. Run from menu (there should be an Opera Mini entry in the "Internet" section or run the OperaMini script in /usr/local/bin. The application will open microemulator with Opera Mini ready to launch, just click Start. This should run on any Puppy, I've been using it for years since Puppy 412. It will also run with old versions of Java (JRE). First thing you may want to do is to change the screen size for your screen if necessary. Easiest way is to right-click on microemulator in the taskbar and maximize, then close the application and restart. Best to run and play with it to get used to the way it works, some things are a bit different.

Download link:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1zrDXy ... DhUi3sphfl

I've uploaded a Racy variant the other day, see here:
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 55#1041555

This is the oldest puppy I'm still using.

Good day, Nic! I tried your Racy variant, and it works nice.

I installed the latest Palemoon version, used Watchfog'd libs, and it browses well, from Youtube on down. Also, installed the blitzkrieg browser QtWeb for any http sites (like our murga here). I updated wget from 1.12-w5c to 1.16-w5. I also updated openssl from 1.0.0d Feb 2011 to 1.0.2L May 2017 (I had compiled this awhile ago, soon I have to compile 1.1.1 LTS openssl since all versions of 1.0.2 LTS openssl support ends on 19 Dec 2019 and 1.1.1 won't end support till 2023.)

I also updated Bash from 3.0.0.16 to 3.00.22, and then installed Uextract, Sakura, and Firewall-tray-status, and then wrapped it all up using your latest save2ydrv.sfs script (new script version works great!), and I am staring a total of 178MB in a frugal folder to run this all. Impressive.

Have a curious question for ya: why did you remove "Login and Security Manager" and thus setting stuff as spot?? Tahr 6.0.2 included this, as did original Racy? Swapping in Tahr's initrd and vmlinuz into Racy shouldn't have required this to be touched and/or removed at all, right? I have browsers in both original Racy and in Tahr 6.0.2 'frugal-installs' running in spot, yet I had to jump thru a few hoops to get it setup in this variation of Racy. Just curious why you decided to remove it??

Otherwise, good stuff, mate. Both JRB's Precise and your Racy-variant, it's really great that they move so swiftly on my old computers. Thanks!

[nic007]

I didn't remove any Login and Security Manager. I only removed the kernel and the old Seamonkey browser from the original Racy5.5 base sfs. I see Racy only has a "LoginManager configure login" under System in the menu. Clicking that says logged in as root. I think spot was not yet introduced by then, only Precise upwards..but I'm guessing.