DebianDog - Jessie - Continued

[saintless]

Hi !
What benefit could be gained or not from using " Bleachbit" in this context ?

Testing in DebianDog-Wheezy I would say nothing but the opposite:

Code: Select all

root@debian:~# apt-get install bleachbit
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree       
Reading state information... Done
The following extra packages will be installed:
  libblas3 libgfortran3 liblapack3 libquadmath0 libsqlite3-0 python
  python-cairo python-gobject-2 python-gtk2 python-minimal python-numpy
  python-support python2.7 python2.7-minimal
Suggested packages:
  python-doc python-tk python-gobject-2-dbg python-gtk2-doc python-numpy-doc
  python-numpy-dbg python-nose python-dev gfortran gcc python2.7-doc binutils
  binfmt-support
Recommended packages:
  python-notify
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  bleachbit libblas3 libgfortran3 liblapack3 libquadmath0 libsqlite3-0 python
  python-cairo python-gobject-2 python-gtk2 python-minimal python-numpy
  python-support python2.7 python2.7-minimal
0 upgraded, 15 newly installed, 0 to remove and 25 not upgraded.
Need to get 14.4 MB of archives.
After this operation, 46.4 MB of additional disk space will be used.
Do you want to continue [Y/n]?

Better try to learn what you can clean manually before remaster.

Toni

[backi]

Hi Toni !
Instead of installing Bleachbit i made a squash module from it with ApToSfs....
which i mostly do with programs i use.....i prefere this method over installing programms . I like this nifty Tool AptToSfs . No need to install a lot of programms ..
I am somehow not a "Terminal Guy " .
Is ,in your opinion for Bleachbit , except needing more space when installing it ,the main argument using Bleachbit over cleaning manually....or is Bleachbit lacking some " deep " cleaning ? What would you recommend all in all?

Thanks !

[saintless]

Hi backi.

Hi Toni !
Instead of installing Bleachbit i made a squash module from it with ApToSfs....
which i mostly do with programs i use.....i prefere this method over installing programms . I like this nifty Tool AptToSfs . No need to install a lot of programms ..
I am somehow not a "Terminal Guy " .

But I'm a terminal guy and I can't run any apt2sfs-cli versions included in any Dog from console as user (outside X). Not so nifty if you don't have xserver-xorg installed.
Now lets look the extra squashfs modules from my point of view. Your bleachbit module for example. It includes pyton and other packages and you probably will share it with someone here later. In time someone finds security risk in python and updates the packages with fixed version. Now your extra module includes python with security bug. You have to rebuild it again. Easy task if you have few modules to rebuild.

But what about the DEVX and other modules provided from the github repository? Do you know some of them include older versions of libc-dev and other packages with security risk found after uploading the modules? Using such module could be a security risk already. I bet now anikin doesn't sounds like a troll Sharing such modules means you have to update them regulary. And some iso versions are already without maintainer. All dog based projects have other problems too. It is huge work for one man and thats why the project needs more people working on it.

Is ,in your opinion for Bleachbit , except needing more space when installing it ,the main argument using Bleachbit over cleaning manually....or is Bleachbit lacking some " deep " cleaning ? What would you recommend all in all?

Looking at the GUI sections I wouldn't run some Deep scan and System categories. Some like Firefox, Skype, Flash will work only with mozilla based browser and if the configuration is inside $HOME I guess. It si still better to setup the browser not to do the things you like to clean later.

Boot without persistence and do some browsing and usual actions. Explore the /live/cow content and you will see what is best to clean from your system manually before remaster.

Toni

[mcewanw]

But what about the DEVX and other modules provided from the github repository? Do you know some of them include older versions of libc-dev and other packages with security risk found after uploading the modules? Using such module could be a security risk already. I bet now anikin doesn't sounds like a troll ;) Sharing such modules means you have to update them regulary.

I presume, however, that if we avoid the DEVX and "other modules provided" but instead just use the provided DebianDog isos and then install anything extra needed by apt or synaptics then all is well and thus easily maintained (since Debian do all the security upgrades for us as long as we upgrade regularly)?

Better than to simply emphasising which packages need to be installed for those wishing to compile?

Personally, aside from occasional minor devx use, I never load any other github provided extra modules.

William

[saintless]

Better than to simply emphasising which packages need to be installed for those wishing to compile?

I think this is better too. Maybe I will do it for all older versions later.

Toni

[fredx181]

All dog based projects have other problems too. It is huge work for one man and thats why the project needs more people working on it.

In my opinion the biggest problem is the lack of respect and trust.
There has been way too much agression, useless criticising and sarcasm in the past, so no wonder that everyone thinks twice to "dive" in such a project.
Oh well, I wasn't in a good mood yesterday (and still not), my bike had just been stolen and I would hit the bloody thief real hard if I'd found him/her.
About the conversations here recently it looks a bit like what you can see sometimes in western (comedy?) Two men begin fighting in the saloon and very soon everybody is fighting with each other.
So, to tell the truth, "we" can talk about technical matters, but I can't see a "we" anymore, so what shall "we" do?
(and perhaps the best question to ask ourself would be: who do we think "we" are anyway)

sorry for the rant.. probably identity crisis ?!!

Fred

[saintless]

In my opinion the biggest problem is the lack of respect and trust.

No Fred. It isn't a problem. You can delete me as an owner or member of the DebianDog organisation anytime you like (as you already did that canceling the invitation to me). If this doesn't show I trust you I can't do it better.

We didn't have anyone to help with the real work behind the project from the start. It was me at first uploading and updating everything and your help in this started later (after I shared the http://smokey01.com/saintless hosting with you). And your work on the organisation github page started after I left.

Technical issues we have many (specially in the so called continued project). I'm not the only one who tried to start conversation about this. Read again your threads last pages to remember.

I know who I am and I know who we (me and you) are. I know who we (the people from the credist) behind the project are.

I don't know who you are. It is up to you to find out. But I think you should not post here your personal troubles with your bike or comedy western. When you are ready to hear about the techical issues we have to fix just start the conversation again. Till then I will try to fix what I can the way I can.

Toni

[Robert123]

All dog based projects have other problems too. It is huge work for one man and thats why the project needs more people working on it.

In my opinion the biggest problem is the lack of respect and trust.
There has been way too much agression, useless criticising and sarcasm in the past, so no wonder that everyone thinks twice to "dive" in such a project.
Oh well, I wasn't in a good mood yesterday (and still not), my bike had just been stolen and I would hit the bloody thief real hard if I'd found him/her.
About the conversations here recently it looks a bit like what you can see sometimes in western (comedy?) Two men begin fighting in the saloon and very soon everybody is fighting with each other.
So, to tell the truth, "we" can talk about technical matters, but I can't see a "we" anymore, so what shall "we" do?
(and perhaps the best question to ask ourself would be: who do we think "we" are anyway)

sorry for the rant.. probably identity crisis ?!!

Fred

Hi Fred know how you feel had a mountain bike stolen hand built frame -sorry to hear about that.

[fredx181]

No Fred. It isn't a problem.

All I had to read was that one first sentence above, you just wrote, to know all about the "we".

[backi]

Hi Toni !
Thank you for spending your time on a detailed explanation on the different aspects i was not aware of .

For freds situation ( or anybody else`s ).......it does not bother me if people try to express their personal situation or feelings here .........as i mentioned earlier .....
for me , posting here is not just about Linux ,Hardware ,Software etc.

But i can also accept Toni`s demand for :

But I think you should not post here your personal troubles with your bike or comedy western. When you are ready to hear about the technical issues we have to fix just start the conversation again. Till then I will try to fix what I can the way I can.

Honesty is a good base to prevent and solve conflicts .

Salute

[mcewanw]

All dog based projects have other problems too. It is huge work for one man and thats why the project needs more people working on it.

In my opinion the biggest problem is the lack of respect and trust.
There has been way too much agression, useless criticising and sarcasm in the past, so no wonder that everyone thinks twice to "dive" in such a project.
Oh well, I wasn't in a good mood yesterday (and still not), my bike had just been stolen and I would hit the bloody thief real hard if I'd found him/her.
About the conversations here recently it looks a bit like what you can see sometimes in western (comedy?) Two men begin fighting in the saloon and very soon everybody is fighting with each other.
So, to tell the truth, "we" can talk about technical matters, but I can't see a "we" anymore, so what shall "we" do?
(and perhaps the best question to ask ourself would be: who do we think "we" are anyway)

It's just a complete waste of time anybody or everybody fighting. Just becomes a drama and some people like to stir up dramas for their own amusement. It's up to developers to keep things on a technical track, and that's actually the problem. Doesn't matter at all if there is no 'we' - people can contribute and work on issues and should do so without any personal comments at all (and of course ignore those who seek drama for their own amusement).

It's true, I feel, that no-one will trust or feel good about this project if those who work on it the most bicker - doesn't come across as stable, mature and trustable, so people no doubt tend then to move on to more professional feeling projects (even if these other projects have technical limitations or feel a bit painful to use).

Considering everyone has just 'come back' to possibly work again, this is a very delicate time, and any kind of sudden bickering is just destructive, and yes of course the whole thing will fall apart again in no time if anyone important displays that attitude. Up to yourselves if you want yourselves and your work to be taken seriously.

William

[Moat]

It's true, I feel, that no-one will trust or feel good about this project if those who work on it the most bicker - doesn't come across as stable, mature and trustable, so people no doubt tend then to move on to more professional feeling projects (even if these other projects have technical limitations or feel a bit painful to use).

As an outsider looking in, all I can say is this is absolutely true. All of the (public!) bickering that has gone on around this project has been a major turn-off/enthusiasm killer. No doubt that you guys have lost a large number of potential users and - importantly - contributors (rufwoof as an example) over the bickering. I suggest, for the sake of the project - keeping such conversations private and off of the otherwise cordial, friendly Puppy forum would be a very good move.

And any such user/contributor loss is a terrible shame, really, as the "Dogs" deserve better. I've been using XenialDog (32 bit) quite a lot lately, and IMHO it's superior to Puppy in almost every way - it could very well be a new "path" to an easier to build and maintain Puppy Linux. IMHO.

Which leads me to the thought (question, really)... it appears to me that the concern over maintainers for the project is not really all that big of a deal (??), as - isn't the "real" maintenance done upstream? I.e. - at the Debian/Ubuntu organization's end of things? Seems to me that's part of - if not the largest - advantage of the "Dogs" in the first place... once an iso is released out into the wild, it's essentially self-maintaining (via the well established and supported Debian/Ubuntu's apt/Synaptic update system).

That is such a HUGE advantage, and one which I've noticed traditional Puppy as somewhat struggling with since the retirement of BarryK (problematic for a number of reasons).

All in all, I'm finding XenialDog absolutely stellar, fast-as-snot and rock-solid. Easy as pie to set-up, modify/personalize and update (as it's Ubuntu, after all... right?!), running frugally w/savefile (Porteus boot) from a $4 USB flash drive. Simply fantastic.

Not quite perfect, though - and I would at some point like to offer a few very minor suggestions - but honestly feel rather intimidated, considering the Dog's rather touchy, tumultuous history.

Just my neophyte-ish thoughts, FWIW... please ignore if you wish!

Bob

[fredx181]

It's just a complete waste of time anybody or everybody fighting
....

(that = enough)......

......this is a very delicate time.....

this WAS... a very delicate time !!!
The drowned cow is dead and stinking very bad already

[backi]

Hi moat !

please ignore if you wish!

How to ?....and why ?....there is not one single sentence i would not agree with.
This kind of feedback is really important .

Regards !

[fredx181]

Hi Moat, thanks for your thoughts, I agree with most you are saying.

...once an iso is released out into the wild, it's essentially self-maintaining

Yes, that goes if the version stays the same, e.g. Jessie, Xenial, but when there's a new version e.g. in 2018, Ubuntu 18.04, there can be such major changes that it can't be easily self maintainted anymore.

Fred

[saintless]

No doubt that you guys have lost a large number of potential users and - importantly - contributors (rufwoof as an example)

Do you mean this contributor?

Shame for Puppy. The Dogs (WHICH ARE NOT PUPPY LINUX) would be better placed on their own board ... or perhaps try and piggy-back off/troll AntiX or even the Debian boards ... and see how quickly they'd jump to evict you.

When he learns to respect my work and my contributions and say sorry for the name calling I will welcome him.

Which leads me to the thought (question, really)... it appears to me that the concern over maintainers for the project is not really all that big of a deal (??), as - isn't the "real" maintenance done upstream? I.e. - at the Debian/Ubuntu organization's end of things?

Very wrong but I'm working on this problem with the original dog versions. They need very little fixing to make this happen and this was my intention from the start.

Toni

[mcewanw]

I see the board trolls are still rife.

Glad that I only visit the board once in a while now.

Shame for Puppy. The Dogs (WHICH ARE NOT PUPPY LINUX) would be better placed on their own board ... or perhaps try and piggy-back off/troll AntiX or even the Debian boards ... and see how quickly they'd jump to evict you.

Or if you must post about non-pups then "Truly off-topic conversations" is about the only section appropriate for such.

Ironic that you seek credit whilst so blatantly disrespecting Puppy Linux.

The above kind of talk is certainly trolling and irrelevant and a lot of crap. The first Dog I know of is FatDog, and yet no-one seems to complain that it is no longer using Puppy scripts to boot and manage its packages either. Times move on. BarryK moved on. The Dogs are all inspired by Puppy and offer good alternatives for small(ish) Linux systems - Puppy itself is no longer a very small Linux and it continues to have issues regarding how to update old isos when security issues come along. As for FreeBSD, who cares about that here - I would certainly say that this is about Linux, not FreeBSD, which is an entirely different operating system (albeit also based on UNIX).

William

[mcewanw]

In the circumstances, I will probably personally fork either DebianDog or XenialDog and work on my own developments and upgrades. But I can't be bothered with the interruptions and trolls at all either so don't intend to publish anything. If I change my mind about that and do release an iso, that would be all though - no thread for it on murga forum - as for anything I've ever produced - use it if you want, don't use it if you don't.

William

[saintless]

Hi William.

In the circumstances, I will probably personally fork either DebianDog or XenialDog and work on my own developments and upgrades.

This is a very good idea actually. The project is licensed now. I plan to do the same once I finish with original Dog versions fixing. Then I can strip down all I don't need and make more personal oriented project. Different maintained forks (even only on github) is good way to continue the development work on DebianDog.

Toni

[anikin]

All dog based projects have other problems too. It is huge work for one man and thats why the project needs more people working on it.

In my opinion the biggest problem is the lack of respect and trust.
There has been way too much agression, useless criticising and sarcasm in the past, so no wonder that everyone thinks twice to "dive" in such a project.
Oh well, I wasn't in a good mood yesterday (and still not), my bike had just been stolen and I would hit the bloody thief real hard if I'd found him/her.
About the conversations here recently it looks a bit like what you can see sometimes in western (comedy?) Two men begin fighting in the saloon and very soon everybody is fighting with each other.
So, to tell the truth, "we" can talk about technical matters, but I can't see a "we" anymore, so what shall "we" do?
(and perhaps the best question to ask ourself would be: who do we think "we" are anyway)

sorry for the rant.. probably identity crisis ?!!

Fred

What a leap!

The guys' bike is stolen and insults are flying all over the thread! What if tomorrow he gets hit with a shovel? Or, for example, his wife farts under the blanket? Will there be a complete meltdown?

There's no "aggression" or lack of respect in DD and has never been. There's some serious anger-management and stupidity issues exposed by some self-ordained "co-authors," those definitely need to be addressed.