MintPup (Trusty LTS)
OK then. A little bit more work but anyone can do it:
And remaster. Should be easy for someone who knows XFCE. I have no experience with it.
Toni
Then change /root/.xsession to execute xfce. Probabaly "exec xfce4-session"mint ~ # apt-get install xfce4
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
............................
The following NEW packages will be installed:
desktop-file-utils exo-utils gstreamer0.10-alsa gstreamer0.10-plugins-base
gtk2-engines-xfce iso-codes libexo-1-0 libexo-common libexo-helpers
libgarcon-1-0 libgarcon-common libgstreamer-plugins-base0.10-0
libgstreamer0.10-0 libgudev-1.0-0 libical1 libkeybinder0
libpolkit-gobject-1-0 libstartup-notification0 libthunarx-2-0
libunique-1.0-0 libupower-glib1 libwnck22 libxfce4ui-1-0 libxfce4ui-common
libxfce4ui-utils libxfce4util-common libxfce4util6 libxfconf-0-2
libxklavier16 libxres1 orage thunar thunar-data xfce4 xfce4-appfinder
xfce4-mixer xfce4-panel xfce4-session xfce4-settings xfconf xfdesktop4
xfdesktop4-data xfwm4
0 upgraded, 43 newly installed, 0 to remove and 7 not upgraded.
Need to get 10.1 MB/10.2 MB of archives.
After this operation, 58.3 MB of additional disk space will be used.
Do you want to continue? [Y/n] y
And remaster. Should be easy for someone who knows XFCE. I have no experience with it.
Toni
@ saintless -- I'll try it, but if it bombs I'll want help. I'm a /user/. Anything complex in a programming sort of way either works for me, or I need help with -- I'm a hardware guy. I can tinker with what I can touch. If it's software, it's almost inevitable that I'll need one of those yellow inflatable life rafts at some point early on in trying to whack something into functionality.
Well its not a competition Toni. Not from my point of view anyway. I'm now a regular user of both MintPup (longtime user) and XenialDog, though recently mainly DDjessie64 because wanting to try out 64bit system. But I am also interested in Linux from technical point of view and it is painful when RAM usage tools are unpredictable in their reports and system efficiency has always been an attraction to the Puppy world. MintPup htop already yields the expected results, so no problem in MintPup whatsoever. Neither XenialDog free not its htop did, though I did track down the technical issue, which had been a concern of far more people than I interested from the technical point of view:saintless wrote: I prefer not to take part in this RAM usage competition. What I find strange is reading here results using htop-mintpup in xenialdog, but not results running htop-xenial in mintpup. Seems logical to me to make such test before posting few pages with other RAM related data.
Poor screwed up Xenial htop - I welcome you with open arms in MintPup.
Toni
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 891#903891
As someone trying to help in system development I see it as one of my (less wanted) tasks to at least find out what is causing some of the usual tools of the job to not perform their function meaningfully. Of course I have better things to do too.
EDIT: and how does anyone know (without studying the source code) if a 'foreign' htop is reading the correct /proc/meminfo statistics for a different distribution from what it is intended. What it prints is meaningless without that knowledge, even if we like the values it prints because they suggest low RAM usage in the foreign distribution.
William
github mcewanw
Hi William.
Do you really think 61252 KiBytes is the correct value in free command after starting Xorg with any WM?
When htop-xenial shows less ram usage in mintpup it is screwed up.
Try to run free or top from Xenial in mintpup or check out ldd output for free and top in Xenial or Fedora23 and you will find who patched free command to give more favourable looking RAM usage.
Toni
It sounds like that to me:mcewanw wrote:Well its not a competition Toni. Not from my point of view anyway.
mcewanw wrote:I believe, however, that the value given for RAM 'usage' in XenialDog 'free' utility is correct since it matches its /proc/meminfo reported values. That being so, XenialDog usage is actually LESS than MintPup immediately after booting!
mcewanw wrote:My main finding is that XenialDog actually uses less RAM on boot than MintPup (and backi's 'free' utility 'used' value is only 61252 KiBytes, which I think is the correct usage, which is quite low).
Do you really think 61252 KiBytes is the correct value in free command after starting Xorg with any WM?
When it shows more RAM usage in Xenial it is enough reason for assumptions like that:mcewanw wrote:EDIT: and how does anyone know (without studying the source code) if a 'foreign' htop is reading the correct /proc/meminfo statistics for a different distribution from what it is intended. What it prints is meaningless without that knowledge, even if we like the values it prints because they suggest low RAM usage in the foreign distribution.
When htop-mintpup shows less ram usage in xenialdog it behaves sane.William wrote:EDIT: you are surely not suggesting that Linux Mint has patched htop to give more favourable looking RAM usage statistics?
When htop-xenial shows less ram usage in mintpup it is screwed up.
Try to run free or top from Xenial in mintpup or check out ldd output for free and top in Xenial or Fedora23 and you will find who patched free command to give more favourable looking RAM usage.
Toni
Post where it bombs then. I usually help if I can.starhawk wrote:I'll try it, but if it bombs I'll want help.
Just a hint if you use porteus-boot. The reboot and shutdown commands in XFCE menu must be changed to execute wmreboot and wmpoweroff instead if you like to use save on Exit boot code. I don't expect other bombs.
Toni
Hi Toni, William,
Started for me when I got reports of very high RAM usage in Xenial reported from htop, it's a pity that the discussion took place (too much) in this thread.
But, Toni, I can imagine you got a bitter taste of competition (reading the last few pages here) from some of Pelo's comments.
Fred
Well, I do not have intention of competition at all and I'm sure William doesn't. It's about gathering knowledge and fair comparison of RAM usage .mcewanw wrote:
Well its not a competition Toni. Not from my point of view anyway.
It sounds like that to me:
Started for me when I got reports of very high RAM usage in Xenial reported from htop, it's a pity that the discussion took place (too much) in this thread.
But, Toni, I can imagine you got a bitter taste of competition (reading the last few pages here) from some of Pelo's comments.
Fred
Thanks! I'll keep you posted... may or may not be today, I got errands to run today. But I'll keep you posted.saintless wrote:Post where it bombs then. I usually help if I can.starhawk wrote:I'll try it, but if it bombs I'll want help.
Just a hint if you use porteus-boot. The reboot and shutdown commands in XFCE menu must be changed to execute wmreboot and wmpoweroff instead if you like to use save on Exit boot code. I don't expect other bombs.
Toni
Hi Toni and Fred,
I think it would be a good idea to resurrect a thread (only one would do) for DD/MintPup/Ubuntu development work where we are free to make any comments or post we like regarding development work we have spent time doing. There should be no place for accusations, one way or the other - we all, to some extent, have different interests, views, and motivations and no one has a right to demotivate anyone else.
There may well at times be pages of development efforts, and often with errors or faulty statements in them - if they were immediately perfect, that would be great, but development is all about knowledge seeking and improvement - which requires publishing work with the open idea that others can contribute and discover and repair errors.
To keep users and other developers notified of development posts in that separate thread it would be enough to simply make a simple post in the relevant users' thread stating what the development post is about and a link to it.
Of course, if development contributions are no longer required or considered irrelevant or annoying in any way, I am happy to leave these threads to yourselves since I am only now an occasional contributor anyway. To a large extent everything is running quite smoothly now so good just to enjoy the close to polished products.
William
I think it would be a good idea to resurrect a thread (only one would do) for DD/MintPup/Ubuntu development work where we are free to make any comments or post we like regarding development work we have spent time doing. There should be no place for accusations, one way or the other - we all, to some extent, have different interests, views, and motivations and no one has a right to demotivate anyone else.
There may well at times be pages of development efforts, and often with errors or faulty statements in them - if they were immediately perfect, that would be great, but development is all about knowledge seeking and improvement - which requires publishing work with the open idea that others can contribute and discover and repair errors.
To keep users and other developers notified of development posts in that separate thread it would be enough to simply make a simple post in the relevant users' thread stating what the development post is about and a link to it.
Of course, if development contributions are no longer required or considered irrelevant or annoying in any way, I am happy to leave these threads to yourselves since I am only now an occasional contributor anyway. To a large extent everything is running quite smoothly now so good just to enjoy the close to polished products.
William
github mcewanw
Hi Fred.
If you do that you should ask yourself what could be the possible reason free and top commands in Xenial to have systemd as dependency. I can't imagine why systemd has to be installed in order to use free and top commands, can you?
If you think htop from Xenial is screwed up (I don't think so) then fair is to create bug report to the developers. Maybe they have the answer to your question. But instead you are writing your own script for fair comparison.
So the question is fair to whom, Fred? Do you think it is fair to Linux Mint what google search gives for this:
I don't know what this screenshot has to do with MintPup but it ended up with MintPup - XenialDog RAM usage comparison in this thread. Something I wouldn't even think to do since they are based on different ubuntu versions (Trusty and Xenial), different init (upstart and systemd), different kernel, different WM, different start up scripts and applications.
In old computers up to 256RAM you don't need htop to tell you how much RAM is in use. You can feel it by how responsive the system is in each moment. Who cares what htop shows if you can't feel the system slower having 4Gb RAM or more? And who cares if htop says 50Mb RAM usage in your screenshot if I can't boot your distro on my old 256Mb ram machine?
Toni
Posting screenshot here from mint-htop in Xenial is not fair. You should also post the result from mint-free and mint-top commands in Xenial. And the result from same Xenial commands in Mint. And you should try to find information how is /proc/meminfo generated in Xenial and Mint.fredx181 wrote:It's about gathering knowledge and fair comparison of RAM usage .
If you do that you should ask yourself what could be the possible reason free and top commands in Xenial to have systemd as dependency. I can't imagine why systemd has to be installed in order to use free and top commands, can you?
If you think htop from Xenial is screwed up (I don't think so) then fair is to create bug report to the developers. Maybe they have the answer to your question. But instead you are writing your own script for fair comparison.
So the question is fair to whom, Fred? Do you think it is fair to Linux Mint what google search gives for this:
Code: Select all
linux mint htop patchedPlease, don't put the blame on Pelo. He was not the one who posted here screenshot from mint-htop running in XenialDog.fredx181 wrote:But, Toni, I can imagine you got a bitter taste of competition (reading the last few pages here) from some of Pelo's comments.
I don't know what this screenshot has to do with MintPup but it ended up with MintPup - XenialDog RAM usage comparison in this thread. Something I wouldn't even think to do since they are based on different ubuntu versions (Trusty and Xenial), different init (upstart and systemd), different kernel, different WM, different start up scripts and applications.
In old computers up to 256RAM you don't need htop to tell you how much RAM is in use. You can feel it by how responsive the system is in each moment. Who cares what htop shows if you can't feel the system slower having 4Gb RAM or more? And who cares if htop says 50Mb RAM usage in your screenshot if I can't boot your distro on my old 256Mb ram machine?
Toni
Hi William.
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... start=4230
My last answer is a year ago but this is only because I see no questions or new posts there. If you start posting something there the answers will come there too I guess.
Also github issues pages are good place.
Toni
There is such thread we used for all DebianDog versions development. No problem in my opinion to mix it with MintPup, XenialDog:mcewanw wrote:I think it would be a good idea to resurrect a thread (only one would do) for DD/MintPup/Ubuntu development work where we are free to make any comments or post we like regarding development work we have spent time doing.
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... start=4230
My last answer is a year ago but this is only because I see no questions or new posts there. If you start posting something there the answers will come there too I guess.
Also github issues pages are good place.
Toni
Blame!? am I to blame turning things in a competition?Toni wrote:Please, don't put the blame on Pelo. He was not the one who posted here screenshot from mint-htop running in XenialDog.
A competition in my eyes is when two or more opponents are trying to win.
So.. Am I trying to win something? No.
I think you are misunderstanding or maybe I misunderstood when you used the word "competition".
Posting the screenshot was just a beginning of a search for fair comparison of RAM usage between distros.
Quite naive, yes, you are right about all the other factors required for a fair comparison.
Started with report from backi in Xenialdog thread which worried me about how to trust htop on Xenialdog:
Which I find strange (BTW, I never said that htop in Xenial is screwed)Htop shows 362 megs of ram usage in Htop
( really.... 362 in Htop )
For me htop output is much less than that in xenialdog, but there's a big difference between free and htop.
Still don't know what's right, free shows too little IMO. (61MB)
As I said, I regret that this discussion took place in this thread, so OK for me to continue in the Light-Wheezy thread.
But I have no interest if you still think I'm looking for some competition.
Edit: Also I'd like to mention (in case misunderstanding) that I don't think the htop from Mintpup has a more favorable output (I didn't write about patched or something, BTW).
I just think it's realistic (and very similar to free, lxtask, conky).
EDIT:
My purpose of these scripts are; they are exactly doing/simulating what is the (different) 'free' output on Xenialdog and Debiandog for investigating and to share. (and I just wrote my thoughts about it)If you think htop from Xenial is screwed up (I don't think so) then fair is to create bug report to the developers. Maybe they have the answer to your question. But instead you are writing your own script for fair comparison.
And, as I said earlier in PM, I don't like your aggressive tone in this, Toni, it's misplaced, I get the feeling from it we are having some battle here, which should not be like that.
Fred
Last edited by fredx181 on Tue 17 May 2016, 21:57, edited 7 times in total.
Hi Toni,saintless wrote:Hi William.
There is such thread we used for all DebianDog versions development. No problem in my opinion to mix it with MintPup, XenialDog:
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... start=4230
My last answer is a year ago but this is only because I see no questions or new posts there. If you start posting something there the answers will come there too I guess.
Also github issues pages are good place.
Toni
Unfortunately, though I first suggested using github, I haven't myself been keeping up with that at all, though I shall try to get back up to speed on that again. In the meantime, should I wish to post anything DebianDog/Mintpup/Ubuntu related to development I will use that old thread you mention.
I honestly think you are on the wrong track thinking Fred (or I) have posted anything with some competition in mind. There is a noted issue in the new XenialDog in terms of htop reporting unexpectedly high RAM usage, and that of course could put people off trying it, which I therefore felt was worth trying to get to the bottom of.
I consider all these distributions created by Fred and yourself from the same 'house' and personally feel support for all of them equally. I still inherently prefer JWM to Openbox, which is why I pushed Fred recently to create a JWM menu version for his Jessie64. Also I like having xdm working even though I am also generally auto-logging-in as root. We all have our own favourites, I am sure - mine really being MintPup, albeit remastered to the way I like it.
I think you should bite your tongue and realise that you are imagining competition when there is none. But that is up to you!
William
EDIT: By the way Fred, I was attempting some humour when I asked half-heartedly if you thought Linux Mint htop was patched to give good report. Poor attempt no doubt. But actually that conky github link I gave clearly states that some of the Opensuse versions of these utilities had been patched. That was to alter what /proc/meminfo stats are counted. Not sure what the inference or big deal is about all this myself.
EDIT2: And it was just my opinion, and remains so, that htop in Xenial is 'screwed' in the sense that it reports far too high RAM usage compared to previous htop reports we are used to. Perhaps Ubuntu publish the new meaning somewhere, but until and unless people are made aware of the change, then its report has no meaning and thus screwed as a useful tool until then - for me at least, unless some arbitrary result means something to you???
http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/screwed+up
github mcewanw
For info: It's not just Ubuntu, just tested on Debian Stretch and there's also big difference between htop and free (for what it's worth; htop on Stretch is same version as on Xenial)William wrote:Perhaps Ubuntu publish the new meaning somewhere, but until and unless people are made aware of the change, then its report has no meaning and thus screwed as a useful tool until then - for me at least, unless some arbitrary result means something to you???
So looks like a modern way of displaying memory 'used' from htop.
Maybe I'm not good in google searching but couldn't find useful info about this change.
Fred
htop
I have verified my view that it is not satisfactory to simply swap htop between systems (unless you want to use older htop even though htop is moving on and new version being adopted in the later Ubuntu/Debian/other distributions). In particular, I have identified the altered calculation, which explains, I believe, the much larger than expected usedRAM figure being reported in XenialDog compared to MintPup. Of course that assumes I have verified correctly, but my view anyway. Details here:
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 344#904344
As for which calculation is better. Not me to say... The new one seems more correct (since shared memory is used memory and can surely not be freed up easily in the way cache can), but makes comparisons between older systems invalid of course. free and top use their own calculations, which may also be changing of course.
EDIT: But if the newer htop calculation is seen as more meaningful by the Linux community experts (which I am certainly not), which I presume it is, then better to upgrade htop to latest in all systems IMO. Same would be the case for any such app (free, top etc).
Williiam
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 344#904344
As for which calculation is better. Not me to say... The new one seems more correct (since shared memory is used memory and can surely not be freed up easily in the way cache can), but makes comparisons between older systems invalid of course. free and top use their own calculations, which may also be changing of course.
EDIT: But if the newer htop calculation is seen as more meaningful by the Linux community experts (which I am certainly not), which I presume it is, then better to upgrade htop to latest in all systems IMO. Same would be the case for any such app (free, top etc).
Williiam
github mcewanw
Hi Fred, William.
I will let others judge which tone is aggressive reading the last pages.
Before this thread gets more and more away from MintPup I prefer to stop here.
I just removed myself from github DebianDog organisation members and it is up to you now what will happen with this organisation page.
All DD versions first pages are linked to github so it is easy to change any information you like. Fred has access to all dd-repositories. I don't mind if you ask Flash to give you access to edit the first pages posts in all threads started by me (I don't know if it is possible).
From this moment I will be active only in mintpup github page and I will probabaly fork DD-Jwm Wheezy and Jessie versions there later.
Sorry starhawk, you will have to get help from others or use github issues page for MintPup if you need help from me (link in the first post).
Toni
I will let others judge which tone is aggressive reading the last pages.
Before this thread gets more and more away from MintPup I prefer to stop here.
I just removed myself from github DebianDog organisation members and it is up to you now what will happen with this organisation page.
All DD versions first pages are linked to github so it is easy to change any information you like. Fred has access to all dd-repositories. I don't mind if you ask Flash to give you access to edit the first pages posts in all threads started by me (I don't know if it is possible).
From this moment I will be active only in mintpup github page and I will probabaly fork DD-Jwm Wheezy and Jessie versions there later.
Sorry starhawk, you will have to get help from others or use github issues page for MintPup if you need help from me (link in the first post).
Toni
Hi Toni,
I'm not sure what your problem is but per my above post I moved the discussion/analysis of what is going on with htop/top/and free onto the old development thread you suggested.
Personally, I was just always trying to get to the bottom of these memory usage discrepancies and have now done so (I think). I believe Fred was simply doing the same, but you attacked for some reason - apparently a misunderstanding, which you still seem to have. That's a great pity since I have nothing again you whatsoever, despite some of your less positive comments recently, and think you do a wonderful job with DebianDog - which is pretty much your original creation and certainly your leadership. Of course no-one is likely to sit back and allow you to insult them or accuse them unfairly, but you should take any such responses in good faith, since that good faith is certainly there and we will certainly be sorry to lose you. I'm sure Fred agrees.
William
I'm not sure what your problem is but per my above post I moved the discussion/analysis of what is going on with htop/top/and free onto the old development thread you suggested.
Personally, I was just always trying to get to the bottom of these memory usage discrepancies and have now done so (I think). I believe Fred was simply doing the same, but you attacked for some reason - apparently a misunderstanding, which you still seem to have. That's a great pity since I have nothing again you whatsoever, despite some of your less positive comments recently, and think you do a wonderful job with DebianDog - which is pretty much your original creation and certainly your leadership. Of course no-one is likely to sit back and allow you to insult them or accuse them unfairly, but you should take any such responses in good faith, since that good faith is certainly there and we will certainly be sorry to lose you. I'm sure Fred agrees.
William
github mcewanw
Hi Toni, William
I feel sad that you stop, Toni, and the reason why makes it extra sad.
Nothing is eternal, and I knew that someday something like this could happen.
If it was for example because of not having enough time, or just lost interest somehow or other personal reasons, I could accept better.
But this is - from my point of view - just about misunderstanding.
Indeed it's a great pity that you apparently can't see it like that.
Maybe if you do, I hope you come back on your decision.
All the best anyway,
Fred
Toni wrote:I prefer to stop here
Yes, I do agree.William wrote:Personally, I was just always trying to get to the bottom of these memory usage discrepancies and have now done so (I think). I believe Fred was simply doing the same, but you attacked for some reason - apparently a misunderstanding, which you still seem to have. That's a great pity since I have nothing again you whatsoever, despite some of your less positive comments recently, and think you do a wonderful job with DebianDog - which is pretty much your original creation and certainly your leadership. Of course no-one is likely to sit back and allow you to insult them or accuse them unfairly, but you should take any such responses in good faith, since that good faith is certainly there and we will certainly be sorry to lose you. I'm sure Fred agrees.
I feel sad that you stop, Toni, and the reason why makes it extra sad.
Nothing is eternal, and I knew that someday something like this could happen.
If it was for example because of not having enough time, or just lost interest somehow or other personal reasons, I could accept better.
But this is - from my point of view - just about misunderstanding.
Indeed it's a great pity that you apparently can't see it like that.
Maybe if you do, I hope you come back on your decision.
All the best anyway,
Fred