Running modern Puppy in Low RAM systems

[oui]

The RAM is NOT the only one requirement!

So proceed as following:

- download some puppy / wary (wary is for old hardware) / quirky ISO and burn it on CD (if possible with Puppy itself if you already use it (Menu > Multimedia >> burniso2cd) as this app simply gives always best goals...

- try to start it!

If enough RAM available, after start, you can unmount the CD! If not, Puppy will not permit it but it will often try to start as it is able to start with low RAM and add on demand applications from CD (but it is slower of course as if all is in the RAM at starting point)!

- If if starts correctly (you will soon know if or not!) you can really increase the spped if you save the 3 or 4 important files of the ISO on the your hardisk! Puppy will find it itself, and soon prefer to process with the files on the hardisk as it can read really faster from harddisk as from CD drive!

- if that also works, you can try after that to install an adequate boot loader (your boot loader? I don't know it!) and start directly and frugal (without full installation) from harddisk

which files are needing on the harddisk:

- after hitting on the symbol of your CD drive at the desktop of Puppy, the content of the ISO on the CD will appear in a little rox window

- create a dir (with rox) on the harddisk with a name like «ZZ»

- copy pushing them the files

vmlinuz
initrd.gz
the one or three files ending in *.sfs into ZZ

- restart and look if it works!

note: you also can look here http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 5&t=117306 as racy and wary are 2 brothers the one more for new and the second more for old hardware! They are both children from the Quirky family from Barry Kauler the creator of Puppy!

[GusCE6]

The LICK installer directly installs a Puppy Linux distro (the ISO file) onto a hard drive from- in this case- Windows XP.

So the question is, once this is actually installed on the hard drive will it work?

Note that you first install it, THEN you try it- it's already there on the hard drive.

[oui]

You don't have some CD reader at all?

(I prefer to proceed step by step as it is more secure... If you read from CD, nothing is on your Harddisk and if it doesn't work you can immediately try the next, probably an older one. I like the very little Slacko 5.3.3 (different versions!). Only about 100 MB (if you remove the old browser and remaster. With Links2 (a very simple both command line and graphic brother), probably 103 MB! Later, you can add a better brother as somewhattobrowse.sfs !). But you must understand: The size of the files in the ISO will increase / expand 2,5 x bigger depending of the compression and content in the unsquashed used system (your RAM)!

Pls note: Linux did have some difficulies in NTFS file system from Windows. In which one is not easy do say before trying. Be prudent if your Windows installation is important for you! In Windows file systems can Linux not use system links (important for Linux), But if Linux works completely in RAM it is not important as the system in RAM is created each start as a pure Linux file system...

Pls explain a bit which problems you will solve (for ex. surf with a modern browser, play, etc) with a modern Puppy on an extremely old hardware because you probably will have to accept concessions...

.

[jamesbond]

- "Puppy Linux 6.0.5 Tahrpup will not install in this way. 7 Xenialpup did, but that was unable to do anything."

If you're asking about LICK, it's best to ask noryb009 who is the author.

- "You mention "60 MB used," so that seems promising- but after installing it on a 2012 8GB ASUS the readings indicated 420MB. Is this the total, distro + RAM being used? Note that it is installed on the hard drive."

The 420MB is because the base sfs gets copied into RAM. That's what the pfix=nocopy is for. Without copying the RAM usage will be a lot smaller. You can try this in your Asus if you wish. The downside is that starting applications will be a bit slower initially.

- "So the question is: taking into account the ancient hardware and limited RAM, how well will this distro run on the Sony, assuming it can be installed?"

It is a 800MHz Pentium 3 system. That's the biggest problem. It's an old CPU which is slow and does not support newer instruction sets used by newer programs. I would say the basic applications will run, but things like web browser (especially palemoon) probably will not even launch because of that.

"Does the 3.2 kernel require more power than 2.6? If it does then there is no point switching kernels with 5.2.5 Lucid; it won't run very well."

- The kernel does not take a lot of power. The applications are. There is no point updating the kernel if you don't update the applications. There is no point to update the applications if they don't work because the CPU doesn't support them.

[bigpup]

Edit:
OH, I see jamesbond as already told you about nocopy.

Puppy Linux, frugal installs, load the main sfs into RAM.
Thus, the main programs and files are already in RAM.

There is a way to have them not load into RAM.
Puppy will still boot to a working desktop.
Only the stuff needed to do that is in RAM.
It will boot fast, but programs start slower.

You can tell the boot process to boot Puppy this way by using the boot command.

Code: Select all

pfix=nocopy

Depends on what boot loader is being used.
Put this command at the end of the kernel, or linux, or append line of the boot menu entry.

[nic007]

This booting into RAM is quite interesting. I find that when you have lots of RAM, lots are still loaded into RAM at bootup even with pfix=nocopy. If you have little RAM, nocopy does make a huge difference and is essential. Another thing: With copy into RAM the base SFS file as in the actual size of the sfs file is copied (almost like you would copy any other file before opening and using it) and not the full expanded size of the contents (the sfs obviously gets loaded like any other sfs file). So, is it really much faster as when using pfix=nocopy?

[Mike Walsh]

@ GusCE6:-

As the owner of a 2001 Sony VAIO this interests me.

Basics are: 256MB RAM (maximum), 800MHz Pentium 3 Processor, 1024h x 768v resolution, Intel Integrated chip, no SSE2 instructions (Pentium 3), obviously an antique. USB is 1.0, so no USB stick loading here.

So far the most recent distro that works well on it is Puppy Linux 5.2.5 Lucid. Puppy Linux 5.7.0 simply takes too much.

Just a suggestion, but you could do worse than take a look at Racy 5.5.

Tuxtoo has just recently set up a website devoted to Racy/Wary 5.5. Everything on there is tested as working in a bog-standard Racy/Wary.

https://racypup.netlify.com/index.html

The Thunderbird-portable, and the 'tweaked' SeaMonkey 2.48, as well as the SSE-only portable version of Palemoon 27.9.4 that I mentioned further back in this thread, will all run from a USB stick. Obviously, with USB 1.0 they're going to be slow, but they will work....you're not trying to 'boot' these, just run them.

As I said, it is only a suggestion. Your choice, obviously.


Mike.

[mikeslr]

Hi Mike,

If I'm not mistaken, among your menagerie you have both jrb's precise-lite and the tweaked/updated wary. I wondered how their RAM usage needs compare to each other and dpup-stretch.

[jamesbond]

"I find that when you have lots of RAM, lots are still loaded into RAM at bootup even with pfix=nocopy."

Caching. Individual files that got read will stay in memory until that memory is needed for something else, then the cache will be evicted. There is a (busybox) utility whose purpose is just flood unused RAM with cached files: readahead.

"If you have little RAM, nocopy does make a huge difference and is essential"

Indeed. The copied basesfs isn't considered a cache; it takes an actual permanent residence in RAM since it cannot be evicted. Thus in a low RAM situation, a copied basesfs adds (badly) to the already bad memory pressure situation.

"Another thing: With copy into RAM the base SFS file as in the actual size of the sfs file is copied (almost like you would copy any other file before opening and using it)"

Correct.

"and not the full expanded size of the contents (the sfs obviously gets loaded like any other sfs file)."

Correct.

"So, is it really much faster as when using pfix=nocopy?"

Yes because eventually you must still read from the SFS. Reading from memory is always faster than reading from disk.

Interestingly, however, there are two higher-level cache above the SFS layer - the block cache (containing blocks of partially decompressed SFS), and the file cache (containing cache of completely expanded files). So once a file has been decompressed from the SFS, it will stay (for a while) in the cache and subsequent access to the same file will be fast; assuming the cache doesn't get evicted in between.

Thus loading basesfs to RAM gives the benefit of __first-time__ faster access to everything in the SFS; however, if you only use specific programs, then this benefit may not be so readily perceivable and you might be better off using that RAM for something else.

In the end, it's about fine-tuning what's best and what works for you.

[Mike Walsh]

Hiya, Michael..!

BK's 'original' 571, yes; jrb's 'Precise-lite'.....I thought about it, but came to the conclusion that I've simply got too many Pups on the go at the moment. As for Wary? I looked at it a long while ago, but decided it was going to take too much work to get it 'ship-shape'. That was at the same time as looking at Racy, which I decided was the better bet out of the two.

Mind you, I was still pretty new to Pup at that time. A lot of water has passed under the bridge since then, and I've been thinking about trying Wary again, as a 'play-around' Pup. I have a bit more Puppy 'nous' than I had then, plus a lot more alternative software to put into play.....

I may get back to you on this.....I take it you're talking about the '551 Service Pack' for Wary, plus other bits'n'bobs, yes?


Mike.

[rufwoof]

The main benefit of running from ram for me is that I keep sfs's alongside the bootloader/kernel and saves on usb, that I physically disconnect once booted so they're physically isolated out of potential harms way. Yes that eats more of ram, but with 4GB of ram available that's more than enough.

Mostly I don't save changes, but when I do I have to physically re-attach the usb as part of that process. If instead the MBR, bootloader, kernel, main sfs, saves ..etc. were continually available/attached then each/any of those are exposed to potentially being modified as part of a crack.

Whilst sfs's are read-only in general use, with root access you can modify any file contained within a sfs relatively quickly/easily. Each file contents stored in a sfs are stored as a sequential compressed stream, so you can replace the 'proper' compressed stream with a alternative compressed stream such that when that particular file is executed it does something other than what was intended (or appears to do what was intended along with other unintended actions in the background).

In cases where there is insufficient ram then using a usb to boot (MBR, bootloader, kernel, initrd) and running the main sfs from hdd (not copied into ram) but where that sfs's checksum and size are validated against pre-recorded values stored on usb prior to disconnecting (isolating) the usb is the way-to-go IMO. Both the checksum and filesize must be validated, as otherwise if you're just validating the md5sum then a cracker could just extend the file with content to yield the correct md5sum.

[GusCE6]

I've attempted to install the distro in question on the 256MB 2002 Dell laptop- all I get is a black screen, and with help from the ASUS so I'm not clicking blindly have been unable to solve this problem. Note that when powering off you get the barking sound so it is there.

Overall the point is this: the amount of power Puppy Linux 5.2.5 Lucid is the practical limit for the old Sony. If in fact there is a way of changing Lucid's kernel from 2.6 to 3.2 then GLIBC 2.27 can likely be installed, allowing certain programs to run. This may be my best bet unless there is a later distro that

A) Does not demand any more power to speak of and

B) Will install via LICK.


LICK literally installs a Puppy Linux distro onto a computer's hard drive from Windows. So in XP mode I drag the ISO file onto the blank area, what several minutes, and...done. The next time you turn the computer on you are asked which mode you want to run the computer in: Windows or Puppy Linux. For a 2001 laptop going online this has been a HUGE benefit. Using Opera Mini 8 in Puppy Linux mode- and it's sandboxed- makes that antique all but completely invulnerable.

Puppy Linux 5.7.0 demands too much. Sluggish or freezing up. I've heard of a "Lite" version though- how much less demanding is it?

Oh- and I believe a swap file is involved already.

[oui]

Puppy Linux 5.7.0 demands too much..

did you also try same with some version of Slacko 5.3? No modern puppy is with all usual tools and applications so tiny!

and I continue to like to use it from time to time (I would continue to use it as main distro if it would be fully compatible with ext4!).

See here:

http://distro.ibiblio.org/puppylinux/

(It is the official main downloads Puppy depository!)

[nic007]

I know nothing about LICK but what I do know is that you need to boot with pfix=nocopy if you have very little RAM. This is easy when using Grub4Dos as bootloader, don't know with LICK. Don't know your internet requirements but with that specs, using a modern browser which works satisfactorily, will be somewhat of a miracle. Certainly, things like watching online video will be a bridge too far.

[GusCE6]

Oui: Unless that distro uses the 3.2 kernel, it would make little difference in my case, I'm afraid.


Nic007: LICK simply installs Puppy Linux directly on one's hard drive. You switch on the laptop after that you can choose between Windows or Puppy Linux. Given how well overall it works, and if the equivalent of Task Manager means anything, a swap file is in place. The distro is not in the RAM as far as I can tell- Palemoon works a bit slowly on "heavy" sites like Deviantart.com but with 256MB RAM it works pretty well.

As for video streaming, you'd be surprised. For streaming videos there is a trick one can use that allows streaming videos up to 360p (especially Youtube) quite nicely. The main problem is that I haven't figured out how to run MP4 videos in the browser normally- if I can do so, and get 240p video options on Youtube, the difference would be night and day.

There is a version of Palemoon 27 that only requires SSE, so it works on Pentium 3 systems. As long as it's "broken down" already it works fine on the Sony.

Same with Firefox 45.

Opera Mini 8 is a proxy mobile browser, run through Microemulator. It is completely sandboxed. Therefore it is a good isolated browser- yes, it is a bit tricky doing certain things but it can be done- in an Operating System not normally vulnerable to attack.

With Firefox I can play SWF and Javascript online games- "Taptiles-Tour," "Mahjong Dark Dimensions," "Kveendolnitza" (TRY IT !)," "Cubis 2," and "Bejeweled" work nicely, but games like "Cubis Creatures" and "Pet Rescue Saga" are too much for that antique.


What I'm trying to do is show that old hardware can still be perfectly useful in 2019, and Puppy Linux has been a HUGE help in proving this. We're talking about a 2001 laptop almost two decades later, and once I figure out a couple of things it will be even more so. Heck, with Panda Wireless it can even log on to WPA2-secured networks.

Here's something to consider: for mundane things computers have been overpowered for a long time now. You do not need a super-duper 256-Bit $12,000 modern laptop with 2048GB RAM, a 64GHz Pentium 100 processor, 128-Bit color, 40,960 resolution, etc...to send and receive e-mails, type up documents, listen to music, do some normal browsing, watch regular videos, and play the occasional game of Solitaire. Old hardware, with the right software (e.g. Opera Mini) and such, can still handle it. An extension that allows skipping of video frames can enable older players to play higher-resolution videos, albeit somewhat less smoothly. Puppy Linux proves much. The one glaring weakness is games.


Right now my concern is finding a lightweight distro that uses kernel 3.2. If it's possible to change its 2.6 for 3.2 and it works as before but with the advantages of 3.2 (e.g. maybe able to install GLIBC 2.27), then that will do nicely- hey, it is a 2001 laptop.

[nic007]

I use Opera Mini with microemulator everyday for general browsing. Newer glibc will put more strain on your old system. I wouldn't recommend that avenue. Racy would be my recommendation for your use. It's one of the first puppys to use series 3 kernels.

[GusCE6]

Which kernel does Racy use, and how much more demanding is it than 5.2.5 Lucid?

[nic007]

One of the first series 3 kernels to come out (the first official release of puppy to have a series 3 kernel, I think). Never used Lucid. Racy is light on resources, it has same glibc as Wary but a newer kernel and newer Xorg.

[GusCE6]

Can you post a direct link to download the ISO? I'm not quite sure which one you mean: some say Racy is not for old computers.

And can GLIBC 2.27 be installed on it? If it causes problems I can just reinstall the works easily enough.

[Mike Walsh]

@ GusCE6:-

Swapping kernels in the older Pups is a rather more time-consuming task than the modern ones, since it's very much more 'manual' & 'hands-on'. With the new ones, you just delete two files, replace them & rename them....

jrb gives a good, simple, straight-forward description of the process here:-

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=60180

I've messed around a bit recently with Racy, changing the 3.0.66 kernel for first that of Precise 571 - k3.9.11 - and then that from Tahrpup 606 - k3.14.56. I also 'upgraded' the Glibc to 2.20, from 2.10.1, but that's only because battleshooter had already produced the upgrade a few years back, so I just made use of it...... I'm no expert at this stuff, and there's several things that aren't working the way they should.....but it was just an experiment, to prove it could be done.

I'm happy enough with the results, but I wouldn't embarrass myself by releasing them. They're very decidedly 'sub-par'...!!

--------------------------------

DO bear in mind that in Puppy, you cannot just 'casually' upgrade core system components with the ease that the mainstream distros apparently manage. (But then, they have a lot of heads working on everything, all the time, and all singing from the same hymn-sheet. I'm not dissing the Puppy community - they're a great bunch of lads'n'lasses - but there's always a lot of conflicting opinions/suggestions as to how problems should be approached/ fixed/'worked-round', etc., etc....)

We still seem to sort a lot of issues out, even so....

(*shrug*)


Mike.