Newbies - Puppy needs YOUR help too!

[Aitch]

CoronelN
Hi and welcome, I've seen some of your posts to tempestuous, so know you're quite adept for a noob
Unfortunately puppy doesn't [YET] include a 'Useful Tips' section on the opening help screen at the top at first fire-up
The one you need [and will help with changes/restores] is to make a backup copy of your save file - saved elsewhere for recovery by CD bootup...it is possible to have several savefiles with different setups, and get offered a choice which to use when you boot up
Also, in case you fancy using more than one puppy and/or linux/windoze on the same box, see F.E. pemasu's menu.lst tip here

http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=60323

Also in case you haven't found it yet, this forum search for answers

http://www.wellminded.com/puppy/pupsearch.html

Aitch

[CoronelN]

Hi Aitch and thanks for the welcome!

I am a *nix noob but a sort of admin level in window$ (It really helps when you dont work in IT but you are good with the machines the company gives you lol), I love computers I started with DOS back in 88 and toyed with UNIX in the 90's but i strayed away later sorry and as i mention somewhere I have been keeping alive a hugebox in a datacenter running debian as a webserver and what not, radio stuff... so far i had survived using putty from my pc to control the debian box from a ssh console... so I know the basics even managed to XEN the box and provide VPS to my friends... I love fiddling and I dont stop until i have things working... but linux wise i mostly leech others knowledge with my friend google... and try and try and try until i make it work.. then i post in my blog how i did it for my future reference lol...

Initially i installed puppy for 2 reasons 2nd life to old CF-73 panasonic laptop (wich is nice and sturdy but cant cope with XP) and Running AV-program on the window$ boxes to get rid of the rootkit i know i have lol...

I installed the pup in HD mode in a 5 Gb part and set grub to double boot it worked until i broke it lol...

And thanks for the second link the forum search was thinking i am a flood bot lol...

Anyway I count myself as an adept and if there ever is something i can give back to the community I will do it happily. (from a how to once i manage to figure out how to do something, to install puppy in every one's i know computer... to hosting in that debian box lol...)

[alternator]

My first foray into Linux and am trying to install on a hard drive. I have been using a live CD and am impressed with the OS, as far as I am concerned anything to get away from MS. The wizards a geenerally good however when you do hit a hurdle like I did trying to configure the GRUB bootloader, when it says just press okay to accept the default but there is no default, and not having the knowledge at the moment of the Linux file structure, am waiting for help from the forum.
I have looked at the videos for beginners very informative I was trying to find suggestions on partition sizes and how they should be used, I am sure there is probably something out there but I haven't found it yet.
I am sure I will get over this problem, but it is just a little niggle that will put the computer newbies off.
I am glad I have tried Linux, and if this thread stays open, I will add further thougnts when I have it up and running and booting from HD

[cprivers]

One really frustrating thing for me is the "save" dialog box. Every time this opens, it is off to the right and down on my screen (1024 x 768 res). In order to click the Save button, I have to move the window up and to the left. One time is OK, but after that it should either remember where I placed that window, or it should open up anchored to the top left corner in the first place. I can't imagine why this has not been fixed, since it is an "in your face" issue.

[alternator]

As a newbie something I would like to suggest to increase the number of conversions from MS.
I am retired so I have the time to read the forums to help me understand the OS and try to find help pages that will solve my problems, however I can understand why folks give up on Linux (their loss - but they are not prepared to give it the time).I can appreciate why the knowledgeable guys get frustrated when newbies come and ask the same question over and over again, when the info is there to be found. The only problem is there is so much info, and a lot of it in language that is alien to new users,in addition there is a good deal of help pages that refer to a different version of Linux. This I think is one of the reasons people become impatient and just ask a question on the forum. So taking an idea from MS (as I know the FOSS community is happy to take good ideas from anywhere), on an initial install of Linux a splash screen could come up guiding new users various topics, written in very basic language, while they are trying to get used to the system, with a tick box to disable it on boot up once they are happy with the system, but can still access it should they need to refer to it. I appreciate that it is quite difficult to write instructions for something when you are very knowledgeable about it, for someone who have very little understanding of it. I also appreciate that there would be complaints that some users were being talked down to. However I know myself that I found the best way to start understanding anything new to me, was to read a ladybird book on the subject first.(for non UK readers - these were books written for children, in very clear descriptive text,covering the basics). From what I have read on the forums, quite a few of the help pages assume that the user has certain knowledge which certainly was no the case for me. So a splash page that had topics below that gradually get more complex, assuming the reader has read through the topics in order.
1) a basic description of the system
a}How to get the basics up and running
b}how the file structure works
c}How to get on the internet
d} Basic decode of the instructions to be typed into the command line and basic syntax
e} The farther down the table the more complex instructions can be given, I am sure there would be a much more detailed list, but I have only just started to work out what I don't know.
2) Where the help forums are, and the best ways to use them

It is I suppose a bit like reading "Linux for Dummies" before getting started on the Install, but I am afraid not many of us do that before getting started. The distros available are great, but in this day an age, I think everybody is impatient and wants to get things working without reading the manual (which I think is why a lot a products now seem to come with a very basic instruction manual and expect everyone to learn hands on). Nothing wrong with that but it needs be be able to work straight out of the box (which in all fairness Linux puppy is - the only Linux OS I have experience with).But it is a bit of a leap to start installing new programs, getting wireless internet working etc.

I'd just like to say the job the developers have done over the years is fantastic, and it would be nice to think that the transfer of MS users will accelerate. I certainly am a convert after ten days, even though it is taking a while to get to grips with it.

[dogle]

Thanks, alternator, you go right to the heart of the matter -

difficult to write instructions for something when you are very knowledgeable about it, for someone who have very little understanding of it.

- very, and that is the Achilles' heel of Linux! I'm sure it's the main thing, after others' naughty marketing practices, which is holding Linux back. (GRUB manual, anyone? )

The good news is that (you are about to discover) some of your suggestions have already been addressed, at least partly. (F'rinstance, smokey01 has written an online book specially to help refugees coming to Puppy from a well-known commercial system).

The bad news is that your post comes as a stern reminder that the first-user-experience is still not good enough - people still find it too difficult to get to the information which already out there - this needs to be fixed ASAP, IMHO.

Another thing - one of the many things which have made Puppy so special is the effort Barry put into guiding newcomers through unfamiliar operations with newbie-friendly text boxes, and his signal success in doing this in spite of the very difficulty you mention. Nothing is perfect, however, and I have just had a reminder of my own early-days frustrations when sometimes a bit of help-text stopped me in my tracks, baffled.

You are in an ideal position to notice any remaining such built-in textual glitches (which never get reported as bugs, because they are simply not noticed by those more familiar with Puppy). If I dare ask a favour, perhaps you would like to let me know, by PM or otherwise, of any baffler-text content you run into in Puppy in the coming days which you would like to see improved?

[Diggs]

At the point of being redundant, maybe I should have posted this here. Puppy's install is still not new-user friendly especially compared to other major distros.

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 6&start=60

[Aitch]

Diggs

A bit of detail about what is so hard, might help....?

Especially specifics about which Puppy and what make/model of hardware...?

Any onscreen messages?

Even experience finds psychic remedies tricky

Aitch

[gr8tfldad]

How about a text file (.pdf?), with all these snippets of code (at least ones that work), that can be copy and pasted into terminal, for fixes etc. I've found that copy and paste gets me very quickly to remembering syntax and to start typing my own, along with a "very" layman like user's guide (I have no idea what Grub is. Or sfs. I'm assuming grub is maybe like MBR?
If someone could throw one together I'd be more than happy to edit it and dummy it down some(put it in terms noobs will understand). I also read and write several languages and could help with translation. I have an extra machine (not new), but would be glad to set it up as a file server (mirror?), if someone can tell me how and host some packages, ISO's, whatever, assuming it's feasible. Sure glad this is based on 4.31 as it's the only kernel that will boot on my kids Dells (old Optiplex's w/512MB RAM so I don't understand why later kernels won't boot). Maybe it's the hardware. If I can help let me know. Thanks!

[Diggs]

Diggs

A bit of detail about what is so hard, might help....?

Aitch

I take it you didn't look at the link. Regardless - Here is the link most recommended for directions to do a full installation -

http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=29653

44 Screenshots! Heh - and you ask what is so hard? Are you serious? What other distro/OS requires directions that include 44 screenshots to get installed? Most of you are so far beyond the install of Puppy that you don't realize how deficient the install procedure is (especially compared to any other major OS or distro.)

[starhawk]

...and why would one want to do a "full" install of Puppy? Sounds to me like you lose all the good stuff that way...

...but then I'm just a n00b, amirite?

[Diggs]

...and why would one want to do a "full" install of Puppy? Sounds to me like you lose all the good stuff that way...

OK then - A frugal install is the exact same 44 screens with just a few other choices. Think of the install routine on every other major OS and distro. Click "Install" fill in name, language and time, sit back and 15 minutes later remove your CD and enjoy your new OS. I don't understand why Puppy can't be that way after all this time.

[Aitch]

Well, I've been playing with Puppy for about 3 years, and I still find it the easiest OS EVER

I turn on my PC, pop a puppy CD in the drive, wait about 25 seconds, or more, depending on which PC I use, and then I use puppy
When I'm finished I take out the CD and turn off....where's hard?

Oh, of course...you want to install, ....to save yourself putting a CD in....

Just don't take it out, and it's installed, just as good, just turn it on

Aitch

[rjbrewer]

...and why would one want to do a "full" install of Puppy? Sounds to me like you lose all the good stuff that way...

OK then - A frugal install is the exact same 44 screens with just a few other choices. Think of the install routine on every other major OS and distro. Click "Install" fill in name, language and time, sit back and 15 minutes later remove your CD and enjoy your new OS. I don't understand why Puppy can't be that way after all this time.

If 44 pictures is too complicated; here's the same instructions in a
few paragraphs of text. (includes Win dual boot if wanted).

http://puppylinux.org/main/Manual-English.htm#Manual06

I've used full (normal) installs for more than 3 years and almost
always found them easier then other Linux installs (and preferable
to frugal installs).

[racepres]

Well, I've been playing with Puppy for about 3 years, and I still find it the easiest OS EVER

I turn on my PC, pop a puppy CD in the drive, wait about 25 seconds, or more, depending on which PC I use, and then I use puppy
When I'm finished I take out the CD and turn off....where's hard?

Oh, of course...you want to install, ....to save yourself putting a CD in....

Just don't take it out, and it's installed, just as good, just turn it on

Aitch

I gotta go with Aitch on this!
I'm just Noob enough to remember other distros, and Puppy is easier than absolutely any I can think of... mostly because once the cd/dvd is in... it Is Installed.
RP

[Diggs]

I gotta go with Aitch on this!
I'm just Noob enough to remember other distros, and Puppy is easier than absolutely any I can think of... mostly because once the cd/dvd is in... it Is Installed.
RP

Hmmm - When is the last time you guys did an Ubuntu, Mint, Mac OSX, Windows, even other small distos like AntiX. How would someone using Puppy even know they needed a swap much less then start in on those 44 screens of instructions. I'm sure (not!) every new user would naturally know to set their primary partition flag to boot. Com'on. The install for a newbie trying Puppy for the first time is a mine field.

[James C]

I gotta go with Aitch on this!
I'm just Noob enough to remember other distros, and Puppy is easier than absolutely any I can think of... mostly because once the cd/dvd is in... it Is Installed.
RP

Hmmm - When is the last time you guys did an Ubuntu, Mint, Mac OSX, Windows, even other small distos like AntiX. How would someone using Puppy even know they needed a swap much less then start in on those 44 screens of instructions. I'm sure (not!) every new user would naturally know to set their primary partition flag to boot. Com'on. The install for a newbie trying Puppy for the first time is a mine field.

You're obviously not going to change your opinion but to answer your question........i install a lot of different distros. Just recently I've installed Ubuntu 10.04 and 10.10, Mepis 8.5, PCLOS 2010.12 KDE and Gnome.I primarily do full installs of Puppy and I'd personally take the Puppy installer over any of those others but the main difference is that Puppy doesn't necessarily need to be installed unless the user chooses.
Oh, I just reinstalled Windows 7 too....

[starhawk]

Here's my experience with linux...

Installed Ubuntu (7.xx) on a Toshiba Satellite 1415-S173 laptop. Reinstalled after enabling a restricted driver that broke graphics. Reinstalled again, after wondering what the System Bus was and deciding to find out by turning it off. Laptop died shortly thereafter of (I think) unrelated causes (fan controller expired -- tested fan; it works. controller does not.).

Built a custom system, which I named Paper Tiger. Original mobo/proc was scrap lying around the house (socket 7 & K6-II, respectively). Attempted to load (and failed) Ubuntu 7.xx, Ubuntu 8.xx, and OpenSuSE 10.x. Had success with DSL and DSL-N but couldn't stand the look. Pulled out SuSE Pro 7.3, donated years back by a good friend (Randy, if you're out there, I miss talking to you!). Worked like a charm... except for its utter refusal to deal with USB.

Got a better mobo/proc (socket 462/a & athlon @ 1150 MHz, respectively). Got rid of SuSE and tried XUbuntu again. Works great. Love it... completely.

Friend donated a vintage-2000 Gateway box (but not a Gateway 2000 box... hmm...) with a CD drive so broken that it corrupted my Ubuntu 7.xx install disk. Replaced the drive (and everything else except the case & PSU); this system is now known as Igor The Rebuilt Gateway. Up until recently it ran Ubuntu 7.04 on 192MB RAM courtesy of the Alt Install CD.

Started looking at thin client computers (sparked by a for-sale post of such machines on [H]ard|Forum) as convertible energy-efficient PCs; obviously Windoze would not easily run on those systems (too low power, CF for HDD, etc.) so looked around and discovered Puppy.

DL'd the installer *.zip for Puppeee and installed to a USB drive after some slight confusion re: zip vs. iso. Rebooted with USB drive in PC and poof! I'm running Puppeee! Soon able to install Wary 500 (with some Grub4DOS tricks) to thin client; final install took... well, a lot less than I've ever seen before. Booted it up and away it went.

Puppy runs on that little tin can of a thin client about ~3/4 the speed of my netbook. Compare specs:
Thin Client: 533 or 600 MHz (not sure) VIA Eden CPU, 256MB PC133 RAM.
Netbook: Atom 1.6GHz N270 CPU, 1GB RAM.

Puppy installs in maybe 15-30 minutes. I've sat in front of an Ubuntu install for multiple hours, and that's not counting the times it's frozen or otherwise broken on me. Oh, and by the way, the only three "bash" commands I really understand are cd, ls, and something that involves a sledgehammer.

Puppy is the easiest Linux I've ever used.

[rcrsn51]

OK then - A frugal install is the exact same 44 screens with just a few other choices. Think of the install routine on every other major OS and distro. Click "Install" fill in name, language and time, sit back and 15 minutes later remove your CD and enjoy your new OS. I don't understand why Puppy can't be that way after all this time.

Which is the whole point of the One-Click Installer here.

Have you tried it yet?

[racepres]

I gotta go with Aitch on this!
I'm just Noob enough to remember other distros, and Puppy is easier than absolutely any I can think of... mostly becauseonce the cd/dvd is in... it Is Installed.[/size]
RP

Hmmm - When is the last time you guys did an Ubuntu, Mint, Mac OSX, Windows, even other small distos like AntiX. How would someone using Puppy even know they needed a swap much less then start in on those 44 screens of instructions. I'm sure (not!) every new user would naturally know to set their primary partition flag to boot. Com'on. The install for a newbie trying Puppy for the first time is a mine field.

Did U miss the highlighted part??
if OSX was like OS9 it would be a close second as a "Live CD"
RP